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Old 08-06-2007, 06:20 AM   #16
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
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Has anyone ever had better defense than the Pea? I'm not so sure. I used to rate Benitez the best i'd seen but Pea almost rivals him for slipping while parrying more often and efficiently. Benitez was almost all head movement where Whitaker is totally adept at both, brilliant really.
I think when we talk about defensive fighters, the triangle of brilliance really lies with Pep, Pea and Benitez ... some would add Locche and Loi to the mix, Zapata for Mantequilla ... there is a very small band of the topmost elite defensive masters ... Pea definitely sings lead vocals on some of that band's biggest hits.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:25 AM   #17
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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No ... he never will, IMO.

PBF has Castillo, Pea has Chavez ... that pretty much sums it up for me.
This is a short but endlessly powerful point. Impressive, sir.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:37 AM   #18
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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Originally Posted by META5
I think when we talk about defensive fighters, the triangle of brilliance really lies with Pep, Pea and Benitez ... some would add Locche and Loi to the mix, Zapata for Mantequilla ... there is a very small band of the topmost elite defensive masters ... Pea definitely sings lead vocals on some of that band's biggest hits.
Fine mentions, i think peak RJJ belongs there too, he was close to untouchable for periods while still winning lopsided decisions.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:48 AM   #19
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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Fine mentions, i think peak RJJ belongs there too, he was close to untouchable for periods while still winning lopsided decisions.
I would mention him too and some would mention prime Ali and prime Tyson ... problem with RJJ and Ali is that you stir up emotions about technicians and conventional defences and unconventional defences. Someone like Pea mixed up his unconventional defence with absolutely sound defensive technique ... someone like Ali mixed up his unconventional defence with competently sound defensive technique, but the manner of his style obscures many observers' ability to see this.

Ultimately, defence boils down to how effective its user was in hitting and not getting hit ... and how did they do it.
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Old 08-06-2007, 06:50 AM   #20
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

In terms of all time defense I'd say the top 10 would be (in no order):

Nicolino Locche
Willie Pep
Wilfred Benitez
Young Griffo
Pernell Whitaker
Miguel Canto
Muhammad Ali
Floyd Mayweather
Jim Driscoll
Benny Leonard
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:27 AM   #21
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

About Roy's defense, I'll say this: you can't argue with his numbers. Looking at some of the punchstats and his opponents connect rate, he was a ghost in there.

But there are a couple of questions raised with these numbers.

One, is how good were the opponents he was facing that were unable to touch him? Some were good, some were bad and some were ugly. Sure, everyone had that, but Roy did fight a lot of trash.

And another question is how much was his untouchability the product of his own offense rather than his defense? In many Roy fights the other guy would become completely gun shy after trying to mix it up early and getting stung repeatedly. They eventually became weary of what was coming back and stopped attack with full verve.

What makes the defense of guys like Pep, Pea and Nico so great was that they never really had the pop to make guys gunshy. They'd continue to swing and swing at them, and continue to miss and miss.

Last edited by fidds; 04-16-2006 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:57 AM   #22
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

*spits out drink*
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Old 08-06-2007, 11:52 AM   #23
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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awesome highlights i think pbf does everything better but pernell had more power and was more offensive. Thats why a fight between these 2 would be hard to pick
have you got the right guy

he had power in the higher wiehgts but at the others..nah he was all slickness speed and 100 punches a round
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:41 AM   #24
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Good to see you posting Meta

Has anyone ever had better defense than the Pea? I'm not so sure. I used to rate Benitez the best i'd seen but Pea almost rivals him for slipping while parrying more often and efficiently. Benitez was almost all head movement where Whitaker is totally adept at both, brilliant really.
I rate Benitez the highest with Whitaker not very far behind. The difference for me is that Benitez was slipping Leonard and Hearns punches perfectly. Whitaker doesn't have anyone in that league of speed.
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:54 AM   #25
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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I rate Benitez the highest with Whitaker not very far behind. The difference for me is that Benitez was slipping Leonard and Hearns punches perfectly. Whitaker doesn't have anyone in that league of speed.
He was? Could have sworn both clearly outboxed him.

And when you consider how cautious and inactive he was in both fights, with what looked as if avoiding punches was his top (and at times only) priority, I don't think you can give him the edge over Whitaker off of those performances, even though Leonard and Hearns were both quicker than anyone Whitaker faced.
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Old 08-07-2007, 07:18 AM   #26
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
He was? Could have sworn both clearly outboxed him.

And when you consider how cautious and inactive he was in both fights, with what looked as if avoiding punches was his top (and at times only) priority, I don't think you can give him the edge over Whitaker off of those performances, even though Leonard and Hearns were both quicker than anyone Whitaker faced.
He was beaten in both fights yes, but he still managed to avoid the majortiy of their punches. You got to give credit to his opposition that caused him to be rendered ineffective. I just figure that slipping Leonard, one of the fastest and best combination punchers ever and slipping Hearns another one the fastest punchers ever rates very highly. I didn't take into account countering or offence or whether or not it was his only priority, just that he was dodging them, Whitaker never did it against someone of that level of speed
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Old 08-07-2007, 07:21 AM   #27
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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Originally Posted by Pat_Lowe
He was beaten in both fights yes, but he still managed to avoid the majortiy of their punches. You got to give credit to his opposition that caused him to be rendered ineffective. I just figure that slipping Leonard, one of the fastest and best combination punchers ever and slipping Hearns another one the fastest punchers ever rates very highly. I didn't take into account countering or offence or whether or not it was his only priority, just that he was dodging them, Whitaker never did it against someone of that level of speed
I hear ya.
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Old 08-07-2007, 08:34 AM   #28
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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Originally Posted by sweet_scientist
He was? Could have sworn both clearly outboxed him.

And when you consider how cautious and inactive he was in both fights, with what looked as if avoiding punches was his top (and at times only) priority, I don't think you can give him the edge over Whitaker off of those performances, even though Leonard and Hearns were both quicker than anyone Whitaker faced.
Sorry Pat but i have to go with this. One could only imagine the elusiveness of Whitaker if he shut up shop a bit more and concentrated more on defence. The guy maintained his enviable defensive prowess while also having excellent punch output.
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:34 AM   #29
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

Benitez took loads of risks in almost all of his fights looking for the difficult slip and counter.

He wasn't a volume jabber like Whitaker and threw less punches anyway.the ones he did go for generally put him at a lot more risk of being countered.
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:46 AM   #30
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Default Re: Pernell Whitaker Highlight

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Benitez took loads of risks in almost all of his fights looking for the difficult slip and counter.

He wasn't a volume jabber like Whitaker and threw less punches anyway.the ones he did go for generally put him at a lot more risk of being countered.
How many risks did he take against Leonard and Hearns?

Did he make an attempt to win the fights or just to somewhat compete?

Sure Hearns and Leonard MADE him fight at certain points, but how many risks did he take?

Not that many imo.
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