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Old 08-07-2007, 01:23 PM   #1
PowerPuncher
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Default SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

Well would he - no Burley/Moore/Charles........
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Old 08-07-2007, 01:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

Yes, the sugar man did miss a few..very few.But my guess is, he would have beaten Burley anyway.
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Old 08-07-2007, 04:32 PM   #3
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Well would he - no Burley/Moore/Charles........
So basically Hamed ducked Floyd as well then

Robinson only started fighting middleweights in the late 40's, by that time Moore & Charles had well moved up to 175. He is bound to miss out on a few fights, does anyone ever have a go at Hagler or Leonard for not fighting the likes of Macallum and Graham or even mike spinks for that matter.
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Old 08-07-2007, 04:35 PM   #4
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

Robinson put an offer on the table to Moore but Archie didn't think it fair. You can't criticise him for not fighting light heavyweights tho. Lets call McCallum Burley and Spinks and Qawi Moore and Charles in comparison to Marvin. Even Monzon stayed put.
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Old 08-07-2007, 04:36 PM   #5
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

Ive been saying this for yrs.
Ray ducked alot of the Bad Ass black fighters of his day.
Burley
Williams
Bivins to name a few more.
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Old 08-07-2007, 04:40 PM   #6
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

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Originally Posted by robert ungurean
Ive been saying this for yrs.
Ray ducked alot of the Bad Ass black fighters of his day.
Burley
Williams
Bivins to name a few more.
Now Bivins

why the **** didnt he go fight bleedin Joe Louis
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Old 08-07-2007, 04:44 PM   #7
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Robinson put an offer on the table to Moore but Archie didn't think it fair. You can't criticise him for not fighting light heavyweights tho. Lets call McCallum Burley and Spinks and Qawi Moore and Charles in comparison to Marvin. Even Monzon stayed put.
Hey JT, I heard that Jimmy Wilde ducked Jack Dempsey, can you beleive that
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Old 08-07-2007, 04:55 PM   #8
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Well would he - no Burley/Moore/Charles........
SRR had Moore round to dinner at his home ,to try and thrash out the details for a fight ,Ray never fought some of the best Black guys but I beleive the reason was financial,rather than fear,about the only guy tht tried his hand against some of murderers row was Lamotta,Zale ,s record has some glaring omissions ,as does Grazianos.
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:12 PM   #9
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Robinson put an offer on the table to Moore but Archie didn't think it fair.
I can remember reading about that proposal in Teddy Brenner's bio quite a few years ago, and didn't Robinson present a deal to Moore where the split was in the 3 to 1 (of a million dollars, or close to) neighborhood or something quite similiar to that ratio, and in Robinson's favour?

I don't remember the exact numbers/ratio, but I believe I do remember thinking that the deal offered was a little unfair to Moore considering his high standing in the sport at the time (it was in '59, I think, when the proposal was made), as well as him being the defender of the championship the two would have been fighting for.
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

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Originally Posted by Sam Dixon
I can remember reading about that proposal in Teddy Brenner's bio quite a few years ago, and didn't Robinson present a deal to Moore where the split was in the 3 to 1 (of a million dollars, or close to) neighborhood or something quite similiar to that ratio, and in Robinson's favour?

I don't remember the exact numbers/ratio, but I believe I do remember thinking that the deal offered was a little unfair to Moore considering his high standing in the sport at the time (it was in '59, I think, when the proposal was made), as well as him being the defender of the championship the two would have been fighting for.
according to what I have read, he got a better (and safer) option to fight Durelle in a return
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Old 08-07-2007, 05:51 PM   #11
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
according to what I have read, he got a better (and safer) option to fight Durelle in a return
Thanks, my friend.

I'm still a bit curious on what the deal Robinson offered to Moore, but if Moore did make more for the Durelle rematch than what he was offered by Robinson, that might illustrate that Robinson's offer might have been a little unfair to Archie. Granted I would expect Moore to get paid handsomely for the rematch with Durelle after the first fight, but I would still expect Moore to make quite a bit more for a Robinson fight, especially if it was a million dollars that was put on the table (I think Brenner mentioned that the money was going to be put forth by a wealthy multimillionaire, who was new to boxing promotions).

As a side note in that book of Brenner's and in regards to Robinson, Brenner was very much appreciative of one fight of Robinson's (when still at or near the peak of his ability, and against Billy Brown) where Robinson helped Brenner out with getting established in promoting fights in a smaller arena, and fought for a completely ridiculous low sum of money. I could be off because I'm going by a faded memory, but I think it may have even been as low as $100.
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Old 08-07-2007, 06:18 PM   #12
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

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Originally Posted by Sam Dixon
Thanks, my friend.

I'm still a bit curious on what the deal Robinson offered to Moore, but if Moore did make more for the Durelle rematch than what he was offered by Robinson, that might illustrate that Robinson's offer might have been a little unfair to Archie. Granted I would expect Moore to get paid handsomely for the rematch with Durelle after the first fight, but I would still expect Moore to make quite a bit more for a Robinson fight, especially if it was a million dollars that was put on the table (I think Brenner mentioned that the money was going to be put forth by a wealthy multimillionaire, who was new to boxing promotions).

As a side note in that book of Brenner's and in regards to Robinson, Brenner was very much appreciative of one fight of Robinson's (when still at or near the peak of his ability, and against Billy Brown) where Robinson helped Brenner out with getting established in promoting fights in a smaller arena, and fought for a completely ridiculous low sum of money. I could be off because I'm going by a faded memory, but I think it may have even been as low as $100.
interesting, Robinson was known to drive a (very) hard bargain* when negotiating his fights, as he didnt trust anyone else to do it. but i still think there was a fair degree of genorisity in him, as he was known to be a soft touch when anyone needed a few dollars.

* he wasnt known as 'run-out Ray' for nothing
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Old 08-07-2007, 06:42 PM   #13
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

Holman Williams is the big miss possibly...though the Cocoa Kid would have added to resume. Burley is the biggest miss, of course, and Moore would have been an incredible scalp and absolutley of no consequence if he lost. Jack Chase maybe? Don't know the circumstances of Marshall's weight, but he was another very good fighter.

To answer the original question, I think SRR may have dropped in the all time rankings if we lived in a world where the best fight the best, but in real terms he would have been greater.

He would have beaten most of them.

Of course, if he got the better of all of these guys then you'r talking about the all time kingpin, no question.
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Old 08-07-2007, 06:54 PM   #14
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Holman Williams is the big miss possibly...though the Cocoa Kid would have added to resume. Burley is the biggest miss, of course, and Moore would have been an incredible scalp and absolutley of no consequence if he lost. Jack Chase maybe? Don't know the circumstances of Marshall's weight, but he was another very good fighter.

To answer the original question, I think SRR may have dropped in the all time rankings if we lived in a world where the best fight the best, but in real terms he would have been greater.

He would have beaten most of them.

Of course, if he got the better of all of these guys then you'r talking about the all time kingpin, no question.
It seems that during in the mid 40's when Robinson was averaging about 145lbs he is getting criticised for not fighting fighters who were a full (at the very least) 15lbs heavier than him, and in most cases for peanuts.

Just imagine Floyd Mayweather getting criticised for not fighting Taylor or Calzaghe today.
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Old 08-07-2007, 07:03 PM   #15
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Default Re: SRR - would he have been as great if he faced the top blk contenders?

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
It seems that during in the mid 40's when Robinson was averaging about 145lbs he is getting criticised for not fighting fighters who were a full (at the very least) 15lbs heavier than him, and in most cases for peanuts.
Well Williams and the Kid were between weights as I understand things (they'd be light middles today) and certainly would have been around to take on SRR at Welter, or Middle. As far as critisising him goes, not really, I think I just answered the original question. Peanuts? SRR often fought for 7, 10 grand early doors, so most of these guys could have matched that. Burley's people are supposed to have offered him career best paydays twice, for example.
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