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Old 08-08-2007, 03:24 PM   #46
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by MagnificentMatt
My pick...Lennox Lewis, im sure you have heard it before but i just see him dominating in head to head, he was so good at searching and destroying. Now if we are doing favorites, id go with either Iron Mike, Joe Frazier, Wlad, or Holyfield....But im just talking who i think does best in most head to head matchups with other ATGs.
You mean "Prime Motivated Lewis," right?
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:26 PM   #47
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by kg0208
And that's relative to their chin.

And Liston was not past it when Ali dropped him with one punch. And yes I know the controversy.

Lewis doesn't have to have a great chin to beat ATG, just like they don't have to have Lewis' size or power to beat him.
Did I deny Lewis was an ATG, a great fighter?

I merely stated that Lewis' main trouble is going to be his ability to take the shot from the murderous punching ATG's whom are going to be up there with his skill level in their respective styles and can therefore deliver the KO shots that would spark him, but would not spark some harder chinned examples.

Ali dropped him, but Liston chose to stay down, that's the difference. Lewis and Douglas KOed Tyson, but after a very lengthy beating, thus the difference.

And by the way, a peak Tyson did not show up in the Douglas fight, he was all off. That Tyson was easily comparable to the Lewis that showed up vs. McCall and Rahman, lazy and unfocused for certain.

I don't understand why you want to put forth that if Douglas can control Tyson, then Lewis can, but then completely deny my notion that if Rahman can KO Lewis in 5, then Tyson can do it easier...
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:29 PM   #48
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Did I deny Lewis was an ATG, a great fighter?

I merely stated that Lewis' main trouble is going to be his ability to take the shot from the murderous punching ATG's whom are going to be up there with his skill level in their respective styles and can therefore deliver the KO shots that would spark him, but would not spark some harder chinned examples.

Ali dropped him, but Liston chose to stay down, that's the difference. Lewis and Douglas KOed Tyson, but after a very lengthy beating, thus the difference.

And by the way, a peak Tyson did not show up in the Douglas fight, he was all off. That Tyson was easily comparable to the Lewis that showed up vs. McCall and Rahman, lazy and unfocused for certain.
I never said you didn't call Lewis an ATG. Read it again....

And while that may not have been the best version of Tyson, we also know that Tyson didn't exacly fight anyone in his prime that had the ability and power of a Lewis. Or the ability of any other high level fighter.

We don't know what Liston chose to do. That's speculation. I know he DID stay down.

And I haven't denied you anything. Remember, you were the one who said what I said was absurd. Not vice versa. Tyson could certainly stop Lewis. A guy like Tyson could stop anyone almost. But he could also get his ass handed to him by someone who was simply superior.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:36 PM   #49
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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I never said you didn't call Lewis an ATG. Read it again....

And while that may not have been the best version of Tyson, we also know that Tyson didn't exacly fight anyone in his prime that had the ability and power of a Lewis. Or the ability of any other high level fighter.
His KO win over an ATG, past his best but still very solid in Holmes is pretty telling. I personally feel that Lewis would be easy work for the earlier, explosive Tyson and it's really easy to invision. It's easier to invision than Lewis actually lasting through the first 5 rounds of the technical swarming of Tyson.

Quote:
We don't know what Liston chose to do. That's speculation. I know he DID stay down.
We can at least agree that it's much less official than Lewis getting sparked flat by Rahman, which there is no way around that one.

Quote:
And I haven't denied you anything. Remember, you were the one who said what I said was absurd. Not vice versa. Tyson could certainly stop Lewis. A guy like Tyson could stop anyone almost. But he could also get his ass handed to him by someone who was simply superior.
I didn't say you were absurd, I said the notion that Lewis was the best head to head was absurd and believe me, it's becoming a common accepted factor and I don't like it!

Tyson got his ass handed to him when he was well out of his best though, it'd have been difficult to do so on a peak Tyson under Rooney's guide.

Tyson's legacy has been tainted and that's fine, there are good reasons why, but the bad part is that it's taken away from what he actually was at his peak, even within intellectual circles when it comes to boxing.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:51 PM   #50
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
His KO win over an ATG, past his best but still very solid in Holmes is pretty telling. I personally feel that Lewis would be easy work for the earlier, explosive Tyson and it's really easy to invision. It's easier to invision than Lewis actually lasting through the first 5 rounds of the technical swarming of Tyson.



We can at least agree that it's much less official than Lewis getting sparked flat by Rahman, which there is no way around that one.



I didn't say you were absurd, I said the notion that Lewis was the best head to head was absurd and believe me, it's becoming a common accepted factor and I don't like it!

Tyson got his ass handed to him when he was well out of his best though, it'd have been difficult to do so on a peak Tyson under Rooney's guide.

Tyson's legacy has been tainted and that's fine, there are good reasons why, but the bad part is that it's taken away from what he actually was at his peak, even within intellectual circles when it comes to boxing.
I'm not taking away from Tyson. I am just regarding Lewis higher.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:54 PM   #51
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

I guess i'm going to pick Ali. I been dithering about Louis lately but Ali. Ali would be the guy who would beat the most ATG fighters IMO.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:56 PM   #52
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by chimba
Louis has teh style to beat ALI??? Thats shows your lack of knowledge because it is exactly the opposite. Its these kind of fighters that Ali will eat up and toy with.
I disagree.

Louis doesn't fight outside his circle of offense, which is tight. But Ali can't trade with this guy, he would get KO'd. Can he keep it up for 15? If he can he has a chance to outpoint Joe, but faster, lighter men tried it and failed.

I would pick Louis by a late stoppage in this one, pretty much as soon as Ali slows down.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:59 PM   #53
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by McGrain
I disagree.

Louis doesn't fight outside his circle of offense, which is tight. But Ali can't trade with this guy, he would get KO'd. Can he keep it up for 15? If he can he has a chance to outpoint Joe, but faster, lighter men tried it and failed.

I would pick Louis by a late stoppage in this one, pretty much as soon as Ali slows down.
I'd pick Lennox over Ali actually...

But I can agree with your sentiments on Louis.
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:11 PM   #54
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
I'd pick Lennox over Ali actually...
This is interesting stuff, briefly, how do you see it?
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:13 PM   #55
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnificentMatt
My pick...Lennox Lewis, im sure you have heard it before but i just see him dominating in head to head, he was so good at searching and destroying. Now if we are doing favorites, id go with either Iron Mike, Joe Frazier, Wlad, or Holyfield....But im just talking who i think does best in most head to head matchups with other ATGs.
Lennox is a pretty reasonable head-to-head choice, but there's always the possibility that he gets his chin checked.
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:19 PM   #56
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by McGrain
This is interesting stuff, briefly, how do you see it?
Simple, Ali lacks the power to stop a perfectly focused Lennox and the fact that Ali never has fought a boxer-puncher like Lennox who was dynamic with big power himself.

Lennox would easily land his best shots on Ali, who's defence was at times lacking.

I actually feel Ali gets stopped here. Just my opinion. If you think Louis can KO Ali, well a 250 pound Lennox Lewis could also.
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:20 PM   #57
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by chimba
Huh This is a very simple ****ysis,

Here's a longer one.

There's no doubt that Ali has the speed to keep out of Louis' way when he is very fresh. Looking at it from the point of view of Louis getting Ali early, it's near impossible, though because of Ali's power deficiency (relative) the opposite is also true.

What happens in the meantime?

Louis stalks Ali. How much scoring can Ali do with the jab and combos? I'm not convinced he will be that succsesful. Louis has a great - and far from arbitrary - shoulder roll/duck. He's used to dodging blows from a retreating opponent - in fact he's an expert. That Ali is an expert at throwing on the back foot is just one of the many and interesting intangibles in the fight, but all things being equal i'll take the guy on the front foot over the guy on the back foot, if they can both be considered experts.

Ali will win these early rounds, although Louis may pinch one or two on aggression.

Now, what else is happening here? Ali is moving and busy. Meanwhile Louis works the most economical footwork in heavyweight history bar none. He will take probably half of the steps that Ali takes. Around round 9 Ali WILL start to slow (almost unequaled in terms of stamina in the modern era, he IS a human machine. He is now dehydrated and tired).

How much has Ali taken out of Louis with the jab? That is all that matters now. You cannot make it through to points against a man like peak Louis if you're slowed...can Ali stop Louis in the next couple of rounds when the trading begins? Is he sharp enough to stay out of the way and counterpunch this great counter-counterpuncher?

My gut says no.


Quote:
none of these type of fighters can handle Ali, Louis is great but hes too slow, look waht he did to Liston, who is technically superior to Louis and just as hard.
I don't consider the Liston fights above board, I don't consider Liston technically superior to Louis, though there is parity there.

Regardless, Louis can't be considered a "type of fighter". He is the best there ever was at doing what he did, bar none at any weight division. The ultimate stalker-puncher.

Quote:
You maybe thinking of Ali post layoff.
Post layoff Ali loses to Louis early. He would be the wrong guy and no mistake.
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:22 PM   #58
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by Amsterdam
Simple, Ali lacks the power to stop a perfectly focused Lennox and the fact that Ali never has fought a boxer-puncher like Lennox who was dynamic with big power himself.

Lennox would easily land his best shots on Ali, who's defence was at times lacking.

I actually feel Ali gets stopped here. Just my opinion. If you think Louis can KO Ali, well a 250 pound Lennox Lewis could also.

I think this one is a very, very interesting fight. I would probably lean towards Ali in a very close one.
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:23 PM   #59
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

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Originally Posted by Kid Gorgeous
Lennox is a pretty reasonable head-to-head choice, but there's always the possibility that he gets his chin checked.

In an imagined head to head tournament you've got to beleive he would get caught at some stage by a Liston or a Louis or Johansson, someone like that.
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:27 PM   #60
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Default Re: Opinion: Greatest Head to Head Heavyweight ATG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chimba
Ali doesnt get hit pre layoff. Only time he got hit was by the terrific Henry Cooper in 63. that was it!!!

For plodding heavys like Lennox, please.

As for Louis, that was an earlier era, much earlier than Ali.

When Ali burst into the scene, he was a freak, a guy a shade under 6'4, 200lbs who moves like a freakin welterweight. So you can just imagine.
Well, Zora Folley sure landed his share of lead right hands....
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