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Old 11-19-2008, 08:00 PM   #1
Longhhorn71
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Default Tyson's hook vs Ali

If Frazier could consistantly reach Ali, why wouldn't Tyson inflict the same type of damage?
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:46 PM   #2
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

...Because Frazier had far more heart than Tyson, and endured everything Ali threw at him to keep landing that hook. Not to mention that if you're referring to a fantasy matchup, a prime Ali is generally used...
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:29 AM   #3
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Honestly I think a Tyson Ali fight is one of the hardest to call. Ali would be very open to Tyson's shots and Tyson has the footspeed to close with him and the hand speed to land on Ali. He has a bobbing and weaving approach that Ali had trouble with as well. Ali's greater intangibles and ability to switch game plans still gives him the edge but to me its pretty much a 50/50 fight.
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Old 11-20-2008, 02:38 AM   #4
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

His hook would cause Ali problems, but it wasn't Frazier's hook so much that gave Ali grief, but Frazier's tenacity. Joe just wouldn't let Ali breathe! Tyson didn't have the same sustained pressure as Joe did, and it would be a different kind of fight against Ali.

Frazier also landed quite a few right hands on Ali, and honestly if he had a better right hand, their series of fights could have been very different. But again, it was his bulldog-like tenacity that made him so competitive.

For my money, Ali is about the only heavyweight I'd make a clear favourite over Tyson. He'd mentally destroy Tyson I think.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:10 AM   #5
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71
If Frazier could consistantly reach Ali, why wouldn't Tyson inflict the same type of damage?
Tyson doesn't throw his hook as much.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:50 AM   #6
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

1. Frazier had a better reach than Tyson.

2. I think there are a lot of factors that go into why Frazier's hook in particular caused Ali so much trouble as opposed to so many others that he managed to neutralize. These include factors like Frazier throwing the hook from the lead hand for power, (so if Ali is dancing like he's supposed to be, he's moving away from Frazier's right side and right into the left hook) Frazier, due to an elbow injury, threw the hook at a very unorthodox, sweeping angle that had the effect of making it disappear from view for a second right before it hits you, (with Ali's tendency to go straight back to avoid punches, the angle/reach of Frazier always meant there were going to be two results when Ali went straight back: either he'd make Frazier look foolish and like he was missing by a mile, or Frazier was going to clock him when Ali didn't go back far or fast enough), etc.

3. As others have mentioned, it was Frazier's tenacity and refusal to ever take a second off that did the most to wear Ali down. By comparison, even in his prime, Tyson could get very lazy on the inside if someone tied him up a few times or otherwise neutralized his hands. For a non prime version of this, (i.e, after Buster Douglas kicked his ass) see Tyson-Ruddock II. For a prime version, just check out this clip against Pinklon Thomas, and see how many times just within the first minute or two Tyson has Pinklon right where he wants him on the sinside, but only either throws arm punches or just stands there until the ref (or the bell) breaks them up. (He doesn't snap out of it until round 6, at which point he demolished Pinklon).

BORKED
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Old 11-20-2008, 11:04 AM   #7
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
His hook would cause Ali problems, but it wasn't Frazier's hook so much that gave Ali grief, but Frazier's tenacity. Joe just wouldn't let Ali breathe! Tyson didn't have the same sustained pressure as Joe did, and it would be a different kind of fight against Ali.

Frazier also landed quite a few right hands on Ali, and honestly if he had a better right hand, their series of fights could have been very different. But again, it was his bulldog-like tenacity that made him so competitive.

For my money, Ali is about the only heavyweight I'd make a clear favourite over Tyson. He'd mentally destroy Tyson I think.
True. Tyson would be beaten before he enters the ring. Same against Johnson. And against guys like Marciano and Jeffries he would also after the first few rounds dishing out everything and seeing them still coming at him.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:53 PM   #8
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71
If Frazier could consistantly reach Ali, why wouldn't Tyson inflict the same type of damage?
I didn't Tyson had the same variety in his left-hooks as Frazier.What left-hooks he did have seemed to be more penetrating,though.
I think Frazier managed to change the direction of his hook by effectively pivoting on his right foot.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loewe
True. Tyson would be beaten before he enters the ring. Same against Johnson. And against guys like Marciano and Jeffries he would also after the first few rounds dishing out everything and seeing them still coming at him.
Tyson never mentally fell apart. Even against Douglas, he endured a beating for 8 rounds but guess what, he kept chugging and forced a knockdown and nearly a KO.

I don't know where people get the whole Tyson falls apart thing when he never did...
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wanderer

BORKED
What's he trying to do here? Was he trying to condition a state of passivity in Pinklon here in the middle rounds?We know that Tyson wasn't the greatest ever infighter up close and that he didn't have the tools to make Pinklon pay for all these rounds.So ,while himself getting hit clean as few times as possible,I guess he had to make Pinklon believe that he was going to come in a straight line throwing punches.So the trap was set.That must have been Rooney's gameplan,if Tyson had not blown Pinklon out in the first round.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Tall durable fighters that knew how to hold routinely took Tyson the distance.

Package that with Ali's ATG chin and I don't think it matters if Tyson lands on him here and there.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:10 AM   #12
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arka
What's he trying to do here? Was he trying to condition a state of passivity in Pinklon here in the middle rounds?We know that Tyson wasn't the greatest ever infighter up close and that he didn't have the tools to make Pinklon pay for all these rounds.So ,while himself getting hit clean as few times as possible,I guess he had to make Pinklon believe that he was going to come in a straight line throwing punches.So the trap was set.That must have been Rooney's gameplan,if Tyson had not blown Pinklon out in the first round.
...

Usually I don't mess with drugs, but I'm a little curious to try whatever you're smoking. (If you're being serious, that is).
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:44 AM   #13
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muchmoore
Tyson never mentally fell apart. Even against Douglas, he endured a beating for 8 rounds but guess what, he kept chugging and forced a knockdown and nearly a KO.

I don't know where people get the whole Tyson falls apart thing when he never did...
So, he was mentally right on the button against Holy?

Douglas was also not pressuring Tyson but Marciano and Jeffries would and they would shook up everything Tyson would throw on them and still keep coming.
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Old 11-21-2008, 04:35 AM   #14
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loewe
So, he was mentally right on the button against Holy?

Douglas was also not pressuring Tyson but Marciano and Jeffries would and they would shook up everything Tyson would throw on them and still keep coming.
dude give me a break. Marciano is like half the size of tyson , there's absolutely no way he's gonna win.

I'll give Ali the nod, but Marciano is simply made for Tyson, period.
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Old 11-21-2008, 04:46 AM   #15
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Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Tyson, for a small man, was unbelievably weak on the inside. Ali would tie him up. Then it would be pop-pop-pop again. Tyson can hurt Ali and would catch him but Frazier couldn't finish Ali off after 15 rounds of wearing him down. I doubt Tyson could either.

And Tyson did mentally implode... He bit a man's ear, delivering one of the biggest blows ever to the sport, because he didn't even have the ba11s to just quit like he wanted to.
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