boxing
Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-21-2008, 03:08 PM   #16
godking
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 564
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbuz
...Because Frazier had far more heart than Tyson, and endured everything Ali threw at him to keep landing that hook. Not to mention that if you're referring to a fantasy matchup, a prime Ali is generally used...
Tyson does not have to ''endure'' much of anything to land his hook consistently . Ali's pulling back straight from a hook plays into Tysons hands who is one of the few fighters fast enough of foot to make Ali pay for pulling straight back from a hook.
godking is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 11-21-2008, 03:17 PM   #17
The Wanderer
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 1,907
vCash: 396
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by josak
dude give me a break. Marciano is like half the size of tyson , there's absolutely no way he's gonna win.

I'll give Ali the nod, but Marciano is simply made for Tyson, period.
Marciano and Tyson are not very far apart in size at all. They're about the same height, (Tyson may have an inch on Rock), and prime for prime Mike tended to weigh in about 20 pounds heavier, but considering that muscle weighs more than fat and the greater tendency for muscle building today, I'm willing to bet Rock would get up to 200 or so.

As for me, I'm pretty convinced that Rocky would withstand Tyson's barrage early and wear him down late.
The Wanderer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2008, 04:15 PM   #18
godking
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 564
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Wanderer
Marciano and Tyson are not very far apart in size at all. They're about the same height, (Tyson may have an inch on Rock), and prime for prime Mike tended to weigh in about 20 pounds heavier, but considering that muscle weighs more than fat and the greater tendency for muscle building today, I'm willing to bet Rock would get up to 200 or so.

As for me, I'm pretty convinced that Rocky would withstand Tyson's barrage early and wear him down late.
Prime Tyson was beaten by guys who PREVENTED him landing on them not because they could take his punch. Contrary from what you might think taking his punch did not discourage Tyson preventing him from landing and destroying his rythm discouraged him.
godking is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2008, 10:16 PM   #19
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,837
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Joe was 15 rounds of hell ... Tyson , even in his prime, never had the stamina or mental strength to throw non-stop like Joe.
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2008, 10:39 PM   #20
Jbuz
Belt folder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,753
vCash: 2065
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by godking
Tyson does not have to ''endure'' much of anything to land his hook consistently . Ali's pulling back straight from a hook plays into Tysons hands who is one of the few fighters fast enough of foot to make Ali pay for pulling straight back from a hook.
Are you serious? Have you seen the shots Frazier had to take in order to get close enough to land those hooks? Ali had an enormous reach, arguably the fastest hands in HW history and a spectacular jab, whilst being extremely accurate with his shots. Tyson isn't going to walk in and land his shots at will against Ali. And a prime Ali certainly isn't going to be standing toe-to-toe with Mike, like he did against Joe in 71. But no, continue to kid yourself.
Jbuz is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2008, 06:07 AM   #21
godking
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 564
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbuz
Are you serious? Have you seen the shots Frazier had to take in order to get close enough to land those hooks? Ali had an enormous reach, arguably the fastest hands in HW history and a spectacular jab, whilst being extremely accurate with his shots. Tyson isn't going to walk in and land his shots at will against Ali. And a prime Ali certainly isn't going to be standing toe-to-toe with Mike, like he did against Joe in 71. But no, continue to kid yourself.
Footspeed Footwork and hand speed three things that Tyson was vastly superior in to Joe are the key to Tyson landing his hook consistenly Tyson is on of the few guys fast enough to make Ali pay for moving straight back from a hook.

Ali is not the invincible god you make him out to be.
godking is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2008, 06:08 AM   #22
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,513
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbuz
Are you serious? Have you seen the shots Frazier had to take in order to get close enough to land those hooks? Ali had an enormous reach, arguably the fastest hands in HW history and a spectacular jab, whilst being extremely accurate with his shots. Tyson isn't going to walk in and land his shots at will against Ali. And a prime Ali certainly isn't going to be standing toe-to-toe with Mike, like he did against Joe in 71. But no, continue to kid yourself.
Yeah, I don't care who you are. A shorter fighter don't come in within a prime Ali's reach wihout paying a price.

Ali's fight with Patterson is illustrative in this regard. Floyd didn't hurt his back until rd 5, and before then he had no luck with his left hook at all.

Tyson, slower and with a shorter reach than Floyd, wouldn't be able to leap in with that hook from the outside either. He would have to take the rout Frazier took, and that was an expensive one indeed.
Bokaj is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2008, 09:50 AM   #23
Bigcat
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Valley of the shadow of death . Remember a desperate man is a dangerous man !!
Posts: 10,722
vCash: 300
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Tyson had the better (more natural hook) yet Ali had the superior Jab....
Bigcat is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2008, 11:55 AM   #24
Loewe
internet hero
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in exile
Posts: 2,740
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by godking
Prime Tyson was beaten by guys who PREVENTED him landing on them not because they could take his punch. Contrary from what you might think taking his punch did not discourage Tyson preventing him from landing and destroying his rythm discouraged him.
And you know what Marciano was best hw in destroing a fighters rythm and had a very good, underrated defence. He would takte what Tyson has to over early and then wear him down and stop him late.
Loewe is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2008, 12:53 PM   #25
Chinxkid
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Madison Square Garden
Posts: 1,048
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

I agree with those that give the psychological advantage to Ali, and by a wide margin; Ali's greatest asset was Tyson's greatest weakness. Not that Mike isn't a smart guy, i think he is, but he let his emotions get the best of him. He got ****ed off, easily, and up against a master like Ali that could tell the entire tale.

But just for argument's purposes, stylistically, these guys were all wrong for each other. Tyson was least effective against guys with reach, accuracy, and some sting on the end of their punches. Ali had trouble with guys who only knew one direction and speed; that's full speed ahead, throwin'! The difference between a Tyson and a Frazier was head movement, angles, power, heart and chin. These last two are often but not always the same thing. I believe Mike had it all over Joe in all these categories but the last. As accurate as Ali was, he'd have more trouble nailing Mike flush on his way in; short and squat for a heavy, Mike had to learn how to get in without getting taken out, as did Joe, but in Tyson's case he was bringin' dynamite and therefore was comin' in quick, big strides, not the short, choppy steps Frazier used, and Mike's big movement, made him more vulnerable. Part of that was also the angles he used. Unlike Joe, Mike was way off to your side when he launched that hook, and as nice as Joe could hit, in a cumulative way, he didn't bring his body weight, didn't bring his punches from the tight grip he had on the floor like Tyson did. You can see the difference in their styles and their power if you just watch their head movement: Joe's was hurky jurky, real quick, slight, gave you an idea of the committment he had in his shots. Joe expected to throw a ton, the old school rough and tumble inside Philly Club Fighter. Whereas Mike's head and upper body movemnet were used to spring off of, he'd get his momentum, his power right off that movement, bring everything he had off of those shots on his way in, the soles of his boots screwed into the canvass when he launched. But when you commit to a shot to that extent your vulnerability quotient goes up. When you bring so much movement above the waist and plant your feet to that extent, you can be hurt, taken out, when you're that flat-footed. The same could be said with regards to Tyson's heart, his vulnerable side in the ring. The more you commit, the more vulnerable you are. The times Tyson was 'broken' in the ring, I swear it was like his feelings were hurt, and if I had to bet, I'd bet that this would be the determining factor if Mike got in the ring with Ali.
Chinxkid is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 03:14 PM   #26
JIm Broughton
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 386
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

The gameplan for beating Tyson was first demonstrated by James Tillis and perfected by Buster Douglas. Jab and move with plenty of combinations to disrupt Mike's rythym. Ali could do that plus he had the chin to take Mike's shots. I like the Ali that defeated Foreman as having the best shot at beating Tyson. Big with fast hands and enough mobility left to stay out of harms way. That Ali certainly wasn't shot as many believed. The big fellows don't need to dance around on thier toes too much to get the job done as Ali showed in Zaire. Plus a less mobile(not immobile mind you) Ali tended to sit down on his punches more even though they they still came quick. Also as Ezzard pointed out, Tyson for all his power was weak on the inside and Ali would be able to effectively tie him up. I'm not saying that Mike wouldn't land his hook at all and hurt Ali. He just wouldn't be able to land it enough.
JIm Broughton is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 05:55 PM   #27
Waynegrade
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 2,297
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Tyson starts to wind down mid to late rds. Where as Frazier is really starting to `smoke` by then. Hook for hook, Frazier`s was right there with Tyson. As for Tyson`s hook against Ali`s chin.. No heavy took a shot like Ali. Liston, Foreman, Shavers, Ali consistently took the big punchers bombs. And came back to win...
Waynegrade is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 06:08 PM   #28
Silver
The Champ is Here
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,442
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

it might drop ali but ali has showed he can get up an win a fight
Silver is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2008, 06:10 PM   #29
Silver
The Champ is Here
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,442
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waynegrade View Post
Tyson starts to wind down mid to late rds. Where as Frazier is really starting to `smoke` by then. Hook for hook, Frazier`s was right there with Tyson. As for Tyson`s hook against Ali`s chin.. No heavy took a shot like Ali. Liston, Foreman, Shavers, Ali consistently took the big punchers bombs. And came back to win...
yeah but aks yourself how many times they landed flush. if a tyson left hook lands clean on ali, he probably goes down but gets up, recovers and goes about his business.
Silver is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2012, 01:58 PM   #30
ThinBlack
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,384
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Tyson's hook vs Ali

Joe was a man.Period.Tyson was spectacular, but his hook wouldn't do damage on any version of Ali except the pre-1964 version.
ThinBlack is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump






All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2015