Tyson's hook vs Ali

[godking]

Originally Posted by Jbuz

...Because Frazier had far more heart than Tyson, and endured everything Ali threw at him to keep landing that hook. Not to mention that if you're referring to a fantasy matchup, a prime Ali is generally used...

Tyson does not have to ''endure'' much of anything to land his hook consistently . Ali's pulling back straight from a hook plays into Tysons hands who is one of the few fighters fast enough of foot to make Ali pay for pulling straight back from a hook.

[The Wanderer]

Originally Posted by josak

dude give me a break. Marciano is like half the size of tyson , there's absolutely no way he's gonna win.

I'll give Ali the nod, but Marciano is simply made for Tyson, period.

Marciano and Tyson are not very far apart in size at all. They're about the same height, (Tyson may have an inch on Rock), and prime for prime Mike tended to weigh in about 20 pounds heavier, but considering that muscle weighs more than fat and the greater tendency for muscle building today, I'm willing to bet Rock would get up to 200 or so.

As for me, I'm pretty convinced that Rocky would withstand Tyson's barrage early and wear him down late.

[godking]

Originally Posted by The Wanderer

Marciano and Tyson are not very far apart in size at all. They're about the same height, (Tyson may have an inch on Rock), and prime for prime Mike tended to weigh in about 20 pounds heavier, but considering that muscle weighs more than fat and the greater tendency for muscle building today, I'm willing to bet Rock would get up to 200 or so.

As for me, I'm pretty convinced that Rocky would withstand Tyson's barrage early and wear him down late.

Prime Tyson was beaten by guys who PREVENTED him landing on them not because they could take his punch. Contrary from what you might think taking his punch did not discourage Tyson preventing him from landing and destroying his rythm discouraged him.

[he grant]

Joe was 15 rounds of hell ... Tyson , even in his prime, never had the stamina or mental strength to throw non-stop like Joe.

[Jbuz]

Originally Posted by godking

Tyson does not have to ''endure'' much of anything to land his hook consistently . Ali's pulling back straight from a hook plays into Tysons hands who is one of the few fighters fast enough of foot to make Ali pay for pulling straight back from a hook.

Are you serious? Have you seen the shots Frazier had to take in order to get close enough to land those hooks? Ali had an enormous reach, arguably the fastest hands in HW history and a spectacular jab, whilst being extremely accurate with his shots. Tyson isn't going to walk in and land his shots at will against Ali. And a prime Ali certainly isn't going to be standing toe-to-toe with Mike, like he did against Joe in 71. But no, continue to kid yourself.

[godking]

Originally Posted by Jbuz

Are you serious? Have you seen the shots Frazier had to take in order to get close enough to land those hooks? Ali had an enormous reach, arguably the fastest hands in HW history and a spectacular jab, whilst being extremely accurate with his shots. Tyson isn't going to walk in and land his shots at will against Ali. And a prime Ali certainly isn't going to be standing toe-to-toe with Mike, like he did against Joe in 71. But no, continue to kid yourself.

Footspeed Footwork and hand speed three things that Tyson was vastly superior in to Joe are the key to Tyson landing his hook consistenly Tyson is on of the few guys fast enough to make Ali pay for moving straight back from a hook.

Ali is not the invincible god you make him out to be.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by Jbuz

Are you serious? Have you seen the shots Frazier had to take in order to get close enough to land those hooks? Ali had an enormous reach, arguably the fastest hands in HW history and a spectacular jab, whilst being extremely accurate with his shots. Tyson isn't going to walk in and land his shots at will against Ali. And a prime Ali certainly isn't going to be standing toe-to-toe with Mike, like he did against Joe in 71. But no, continue to kid yourself.

Yeah, I don't care who you are. A shorter fighter don't come in within a prime Ali's reach wihout paying a price.

Ali's fight with Patterson is illustrative in this regard. Floyd didn't hurt his back until rd 5, and before then he had no luck with his left hook at all.

Tyson, slower and with a shorter reach than Floyd, wouldn't be able to leap in with that hook from the outside either. He would have to take the rout Frazier took, and that was an expensive one indeed.

[Bigcat]

Tyson had the better (more natural hook) yet Ali had the superior Jab....

[Loewe]

Originally Posted by godking

Prime Tyson was beaten by guys who PREVENTED him landing on them not because they could take his punch. Contrary from what you might think taking his punch did not discourage Tyson preventing him from landing and destroying his rythm discouraged him.

And you know what Marciano was best hw in destroing a fighters rythm and had a very good, underrated defence. He would takte what Tyson has to over early and then wear him down and stop him late.

[Chinxkid]

I agree with those that give the psychological advantage to Ali, and by a wide margin; Ali's greatest asset was Tyson's greatest weakness. Not that Mike isn't a smart guy, i think he is, but he let his emotions get the best of him. He got pissed off, easily, and up against a master like Ali that could tell the entire tale.

But just for argument's purposes, stylistically, these guys were all wrong for each other. Tyson was least effective against guys with reach, accuracy, and some sting on the end of their punches. Ali had trouble with guys who only knew one direction and speed; that's full speed ahead, throwin'! The difference between a Tyson and a Frazier was head movement, angles, power, heart and chin. These last two are often but not always the same thing. I believe Mike had it all over Joe in all these categories but the last. As accurate as Ali was, he'd have more trouble nailing Mike flush on his way in; short and squat for a heavy, Mike had to learn how to get in without getting taken out, as did Joe, but in Tyson's case he was bringin' dynamite and therefore was comin' in quick, big strides, not the short, choppy steps Frazier used, and Mike's big movement, made him more vulnerable. Part of that was also the angles he used. Unlike Joe, Mike was way off to your side when he launched that hook, and as nice as Joe could hit, in a cumulative way, he didn't bring his body weight, didn't bring his punches from the tight grip he had on the floor like Tyson did. You can see the difference in their styles and their power if you just watch their head movement: Joe's was hurky jurky, real quick, slight, gave you an idea of the committment he had in his shots. Joe expected to throw a ton, the old school rough and tumble inside Philly Club Fighter. Whereas Mike's head and upper body movemnet were used to spring off of, he'd get his momentum, his power right off that movement, bring everything he had off of those shots on his way in, the soles of his boots screwed into the canvass when he launched. But when you commit to a shot to that extent your vulnerability quotient goes up. When you bring so much movement above the waist and plant your feet to that extent, you can be hurt, taken out, when you're that flat-footed. The same could be said with regards to Tyson's heart, his vulnerable side in the ring. The more you commit, the more vulnerable you are. The times Tyson was 'broken' in the ring, I swear it was like his feelings were hurt, and if I had to bet, I'd bet that this would be the determining factor if Mike got in the ring with Ali.

[JIm Broughton]

The gameplan for beating Tyson was first demonstrated by James Tillis and perfected by Buster Douglas. Jab and move with plenty of combinations to disrupt Mike's rythym. Ali could do that plus he had the chin to take Mike's shots. I like the Ali that defeated Foreman as having the best shot at beating Tyson. Big with fast hands and enough mobility left to stay out of harms way. That Ali certainly wasn't shot as many believed. The big fellows don't need to dance around on thier toes too much to get the job done as Ali showed in Zaire. Plus a less mobile(not immobile mind you) Ali tended to sit down on his punches more even though they they still came quick. Also as Ezzard pointed out, Tyson for all his power was weak on the inside and Ali would be able to effectively tie him up. I'm not saying that Mike wouldn't land his hook at all and hurt Ali. He just wouldn't be able to land it enough.

[Waynegrade]

Tyson starts to wind down mid to late rds. Where as Frazier is really starting to `smoke` by then. Hook for hook, Frazier`s was right there with Tyson. As for Tyson`s hook against Ali`s chin.. No heavy took a shot like Ali. Liston, Foreman, Shavers, Ali consistently took the big punchers bombs. And came back to win...

[Silver]

it might drop ali but ali has showed he can get up an win a fight

[Silver]

Originally Posted by Waynegrade

Tyson starts to wind down mid to late rds. Where as Frazier is really starting to `smoke` by then. Hook for hook, Frazier`s was right there with Tyson. As for Tyson`s hook against Ali`s chin.. No heavy took a shot like Ali. Liston, Foreman, Shavers, Ali consistently took the big punchers bombs. And came back to win...

yeah but aks yourself how many times they landed flush. if a tyson left hook lands clean on ali, he probably goes down but gets up, recovers and goes about his business.

[ThinBlack]

Joe was a man.Period.Tyson was spectacular, but his hook wouldn't do damage on any version of Ali except the pre-1964 version.