Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era

Mendoza · 08-08-2007, 07:44 AM

If Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier switched eras and fought the exact same guys, how would their career’s play out?

Could Frazier make it to 49-0? Would Rocky have beaten Ali once, or faired better vs Foreman?

McGrain · 08-08-2007, 07:50 AM

I think it's possible that Frazier could have made it to 49-0, yes, though it's not possible to insist that he could have done it, no way. It's an astonishing achievment. I think Frazier is an example of someone who could do it, and it's worth noting that Rocky didn't defend the title to many times so if Frazier did go a little soft once he came to the title he could possibly get away with it.

As for Rocky in Frazier's time, no I don't personally believe he would be able to take Ali at the fight of the century. He cuts and would be in against a fighter who can cut an opponent, for one thing, for another, though there is no question over Rocky's stamina very few fighters ahve proved themselves in possesion of Frazier's durability.

Marciano-Foreman is an intreguing one, i'll look forward to what others have to sa about that.

garymcfall · 08-08-2007, 07:51 AM

Frazier wouldnt make it to 49 - 0, marciano would lose to both ali and foreman everytime

janitor · 08-08-2007, 08:05 AM

I did a fairly detailed analysis on Frazier in Marciano's era last year.

I concluded that while there were danger points for Frazier he could quite plausibly make it to 49-0.

I also did Marciano in Fraziers era but in place of Ali instead.

Dostoevsky · 08-08-2007, 08:20 AM

Frazier would get to 49-0 probably even greater.
Marciano would get beaten by Ali and Foreman. That is if he would be allowed to fight at heavyweight!

FlatNose · 08-08-2007, 08:25 AM

One thing about Marciano is that when he got you on the ropes he was absoloutly brutal, even more so than Frazier.This makes me think he'd do even better against Ali, in the first fight anyway. Foreman may be another matter, though.George was at his best against guys who crouched in front of him like Frazier, Norton did and like Marciano would.I would still give Rocky a chance though, because he was a bit more durable (except for the skin) than Smokin Joe , punched harder, and did have better stamina in long fights.Rocky was also able to crouch down even farther, making himself less of a target against George than Joe was.
Joe in Rockys era would certainly beat everybody Marciano did, and probably could have gone 49-0, yes.

fists of fury · 08-08-2007, 08:31 AM

Frazier going 49-0 in Rocky's era is plausible, but unlikely. Just because Rocky did it, it doesn't mean others could. It takes an almost uncanny level of consistency to achieve 49-0, irrespective of era. I think Walcott could have given Frazier fits with that sneaky style of his.

Could Rocky do a 'Frazier'? Possible. He would have to be in absolute peak form to beat Ali though. In my mind, the guys Frazier beat would get beaten by Marciano too.
The danger man for Marciano is Foreman, whom I think would be too strong for Rocky, just like he was for Frazier.

Marciano and Frazier are quite similar in many ways, particularly in the intangibles, although I give Marciano the edge in stamina and durability.

Rattler · 08-08-2007, 08:35 AM

Basically, both men would assume the same success that the other actually achieved... although it is important to wonder how much Frazier would've done, not having an Ali and Foreman there to shorten his career so much. Don't think he would've been undefeated though, because he would've hung around long enough for a Patterson or Liston to defeat him.

As for Marciano, we'd get a better sense of how good he really was, since he'd have the task of getting through a much stronger crop of HW contenders to get to the championship.

fists of fury · 08-08-2007, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rattler

As for Marciano, we'd get a better sense of how good he really was, since he'd have the task of getting through a much stronger crop of HW contenders to get to the championship.

Do you really feel that the likes of Mathis and Ellis were superior to Marciano's competition though?
Personally, I don't think so.

Rattler · 08-08-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fists of fury

Do you really feel that the likes of Mathis and Ellis were superior to Marciano's competition though?
Personally, I don't think so.

I cut myself short there.... as the comment was also supposed to point toward Frazier's competition after he won the title; the entirety of his career and the total scope of his competition. Put all together, his comp is stronger than Rocky's.

I wouldn't use "superior" (which summizes a valuble difference), but "better", yes.

Jack · 08-08-2007, 09:16 AM

I don't think there is anyone on Marciano's resume who had enough to beat Frazier. Like I've said before, Marciano was the prototype for Frazier. He just wasn't as good, I don't think. One main disadvantage Frazier has is benig noe-handed, but don't think it's that significant.

Frazier would probably get beyond 49-0 with little problems - Certainly not from people like LaStarza.

As for Marciano, I don't think he would hae been as shot as Frazier was post the first Ali fight. I think he would have had a much better career after that fight. I think he goes 0-5 against Ali and Foreman though.

Size is important too. Considering both men had almost identical physical attributes, that 20lbs is going to make a big difference. Frazier would be the bigger man in most of Marciano's fights, whereas Marciano would be tiny compared to Ali and others.

fists of fury · 08-08-2007, 09:32 AM

Here is a tale of the tape of the two fighters. Joe is really only much larger than Rocky in the thigh area.

Marciano: Frazier:

Reach: 68 73 1/2
Chest normal: 39 42
Chest expanded: 42 44
Waist: 32 34
Biceps: 14 15
Neck: 16¾ 17 1/2
Wrist: 7½ 7
Calf: 14¾ 13
Ankle: 10 11
Thigh: 22 26
Fist: 11½ 13
Forearm: 12 13

fists of fury · 08-08-2007, 09:33 AM

Damn, that came out ugly. I should have done it in excel or something.

Dostoevsky · 08-08-2007, 09:37 AM

Frazier is bigger in every area except the calf and wrist.

Marnoff · 08-08-2007, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack

Frazier would probably get beyond 49-0 with little problems - Certainly not from people like LaStarza.

Man... you must be joking. 49-0 easy? Give me a break, you must know nothing of Marciano's career, but you've got stars in your eyes about Frazier.

08-08-2007, 07:44 AM	#1
Mendoza Dominating a decade East Side VIP Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 12,785 vCash: 1000	Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era If Rocky Marciano and Joe Frazier switched eras and fought the exact same guys, how would their career’s play out? Could Frazier make it to 49-0? Would Rocky have beaten Ali once, or faired better vs Foreman?
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08-08-2007, 07:50 AM	#2
McGrain Diamond Dog East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 34,759 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era I think it's possible that Frazier could have made it to 49-0, yes, though it's not possible to insist that he could have done it, no way. It's an astonishing achievment. I think Frazier is an example of someone who could do it, and it's worth noting that Rocky didn't defend the title to many times so if Frazier did go a little soft once he came to the title he could possibly get away with it. As for Rocky in Frazier's time, no I don't personally believe he would be able to take Ali at the fight of the century. He cuts and would be in against a fighter who can cut an opponent, for one thing, for another, though there is no question over Rocky's stamina very few fighters ahve proved themselves in possesion of Frazier's durability. Marciano-Foreman is an intreguing one, i'll look forward to what others have to sa about that.
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08-08-2007, 07:51 AM	#3
garymcfall Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 608 vCash: 944	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era Frazier wouldnt make it to 49 - 0, marciano would lose to both ali and foreman everytime
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08-08-2007, 08:05 AM	#4
janitor P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 19,155 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era I did a fairly detailed analysis on Frazier in Marciano's era last year. I concluded that while there were danger points for Frazier he could quite plausibly make it to 49-0. I also did Marciano in Fraziers era but in place of Ali instead.
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08-08-2007, 08:20 AM	#5
Dostoevsky Hardcore......to the max! ESB Addict Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: The Kingdom of Fife, Scotland. Posts: 2,848 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era Frazier would get to 49-0 probably even greater. Marciano would get beaten by Ali and Foreman. That is if he would be allowed to fight at heavyweight!
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08-08-2007, 08:25 AM	#6
FlatNose Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,406 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era One thing about Marciano is that when he got you on the ropes he was absoloutly brutal, even more so than Frazier.This makes me think he'd do even better against Ali, in the first fight anyway. Foreman may be another matter, though.George was at his best against guys who crouched in front of him like Frazier, Norton did and like Marciano would.I would still give Rocky a chance though, because he was a bit more durable (except for the skin) than Smokin Joe , punched harder, and did have better stamina in long fights.Rocky was also able to crouch down even farther, making himself less of a target against George than Joe was. Joe in Rockys era would certainly beat everybody Marciano did, and probably could have gone 49-0, yes.
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08-08-2007, 08:31 AM	#7
fists of fury Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: March for Revenge Posts: 4,682 vCash: 1325	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era Frazier going 49-0 in Rocky's era is plausible, but unlikely. Just because Rocky did it, it doesn't mean others could. It takes an almost uncanny level of consistency to achieve 49-0, irrespective of era. I think Walcott could have given Frazier fits with that sneaky style of his. Could Rocky do a 'Frazier'? Possible. He would have to be in absolute peak form to beat Ali though. In my mind, the guys Frazier beat would get beaten by Marciano too. The danger man for Marciano is Foreman, whom I think would be too strong for Rocky, just like he was for Frazier. Marciano and Frazier are quite similar in many ways, particularly in the intangibles, although I give Marciano the edge in stamina and durability.
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08-08-2007, 08:35 AM	#8
Rattler R.I.P. - George Jones ESB Addict Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: The Grand Tour Posts: 2,027 vCash: 75	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era Basically, both men would assume the same success that the other actually achieved... although it is important to wonder how much Frazier would've done, not having an Ali and Foreman there to shorten his career so much. Don't think he would've been undefeated though, because he would've hung around long enough for a Patterson or Liston to defeat him. As for Marciano, we'd get a better sense of how good he really was, since he'd have the task of getting through a much stronger crop of HW contenders to get to the championship.
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08-08-2007, 09:16 AM	#11
Jack Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: England Posts: 11,327 vCash: 15000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era I don't think there is anyone on Marciano's resume who had enough to beat Frazier. Like I've said before, Marciano was the prototype for Frazier. He just wasn't as good, I don't think. One main disadvantage Frazier has is benig noe-handed, but don't think it's that significant. Frazier would probably get beyond 49-0 with little problems - Certainly not from people like LaStarza. As for Marciano, I don't think he would hae been as shot as Frazier was post the first Ali fight. I think he would have had a much better career after that fight. I think he goes 0-5 against Ali and Foreman though. Size is important too. Considering both men had almost identical physical attributes, that 20lbs is going to make a big difference. Frazier would be the bigger man in most of Marciano's fights, whereas Marciano would be tiny compared to Ali and others.
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08-08-2007, 09:32 AM	#12
fists of fury Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: March for Revenge Posts: 4,682 vCash: 1325	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era Here is a tale of the tape of the two fighters. Joe is really only much larger than Rocky in the thigh area. Marciano: Frazier: Reach: 68 73 1/2 Chest normal: 39 42 Chest expanded: 42 44 Waist: 32 34 Biceps: 14 15 Neck: 16¾ 17 1/2 Wrist: 7½ 7 Calf: 14¾ 13 Ankle: 10 11 Thigh: 22 26 Fist: 11½ 13 Forearm: 12 13
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08-08-2007, 09:33 AM	#13
fists of fury Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: March for Revenge Posts: 4,682 vCash: 1325	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era Damn, that came out ugly. I should have done it in excel or something.
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08-08-2007, 09:37 AM	#14
Dostoevsky Hardcore......to the max! ESB Addict Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: The Kingdom of Fife, Scotland. Posts: 2,848 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era Frazier is bigger in every area except the calf and wrist.
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