Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era - Page 2

OLD FOGEY · 08-08-2007, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janitor

I did a fairly detailed analysis on Frazier in Marciano's era last year.

I concluded that while there were danger points for Frazier he could quite plausibly make it to 49-0.

I also did Marciano in Fraziers era but in place of Ali instead.

I think you could plausibly argue that any great champion would go undefeated against the foes of another great champion, except perhaps Ali's foes. They are, after all, considered top ten fighters of all time.

If you switched Frazier and Marciano's careers, Frazier would have lost the years from 20, when he won the Olympic title, to 24, when he won a version of the title, to military service. His career would not even have begun at the time in his own time when he was champion. What impact would such a late start have had? Who knows. Frazier lost to Foreman the first time on the month of his 29th birthday. Marciano defeated Walcott to win the title on the month of his 29th birthday. It would have been the Frazier of the first Foreman fight who fights Walcott, the Frazier of the second Ellis fight who fights Charles, and the Frazier of the second Foreman fight, frankly way over weight, who fights Moore.

I think a loss is, at best, not an unlikely prospect.

It is all speculation, anyway.

janitor · 08-08-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY

I think you could plausibly argue that any great champion would go undefeated against the foes of another great champion, except perhaps Ali's foes. They are, after all, considered top ten fighters of all time.

If you switched Frazier and Marciano's careers, Frazier would have lost the years from 20, when he won the Olympic title, to 24, when he won a version of the title, to military service. His career would not even have begun at the time in his own time when he was champion. What impact would such a late start have had? Who knows. Frazier lost to Foreman the first time on the month of his 29th birthday. Marciano defeated Walcott to win the title on the month of his 29th birthday. It would have been the Frazier of the first Foreman fight who fights Walcott, the Frazier of the second Ellis fight who fights Charles, and the Frazier of the second Foreman fight, frankly way over weight, who fights Moore.

I think a loss is, at best, not an unlikely prospect.

It is all speculation, anyway.

The greatest threat to Frazier going 49-0 would likley come at the dawn of his profesional career when he is used as canon foder as a raw profesional with a verry short amateur career.

Dempsey1238 · 08-08-2007, 03:54 PM

From Janitor from Last YEAR.

Something to think about before you guys just claim, that anyfighter would clean house on Marciano's era. Other poster said it this way when Fraizer vs Marciano's oppentions. And I sort of agree with him.

Joe Frazier vs Rocky Marcianos opposition

In this scenario our young Joe Frazier dose not enjoy the benefits of a long amateur career culminating in an olympic gold medal. He is thrown into the professional ranks after only twelve amateur fights. Worse still, by his third profissional fight his sheister manager starts matching him up with people who have records 15-25 wins to give his boys an easy victory. It is not unlikley that our young Joe Fraziers quest to tie the magic 49,0 ends when he picks up a loss in his first twenty fights.

Eventually he starts to rise through the ranks and his potential is recognised. His next big test is when he takes his first step up in competiton against the unbeaten Roland LaStraza. Would the Frazier who fought Oscar Bonavena be ready for LaStraza yet? Hard to say. Whether he gets past this hurdle or not he will be hitting the big time by now.

Once in the mix with the top contenders Frazier will find this era of small slick fighters particularly well suited to his swarming style. Rex Layne would be a bad stylistc match for him but I am sure he would prevail. He will certainly go on to win the title one way or another. Having fought Walcott twice, Charles twice Moore once and LaStraza twice it is possible that one of them edges him to take a decision at some point in the timeline.

Will Frazier tie the magic 49,0? Personaly he is one of the few fighters that I could see doing it but there are a lot of pitfalls along the way early in his career on the way up and late in it also.

The thing is, you can NEVER be sure 100 percent that Tyson, Ali or Fraizer would tie the magic 49-0 record had they fought in Marciano's era.

Dempsey1238 · 08-08-2007, 03:56 PM

my sort of replie. lol All before the crash of couse.

wasnt me, other poster on other fourm,

He had Fraizer vs Louis, Johnson's and others comp.

Not to say Fraizer would not go unbeating, but there are a lot of pitfalls(As he said)Could Fraizer go 49-0?? Of couse. But there is always the chance he might get upset here or there. Or being too green vs the likes of Eddie Ross(25-0 vs the Rock's 3-0)

If they could get though being short change our put in with GUYS over there level, they can get to the 49.

Ali could do it, but he was prone of being upset here or there(As with the case of Norton and Spinks)

I think Tyson would go to 35 and 0 or something and have that ONE night were he is upset.

Foreman?? I would think he COULD do it, but if he can get out of the early going with the Eddie Ross's(When Foreman was 2-0 or something) Than he could do it. I think Larzaza and Walcott, would be his biggest test. Charles has a shot also if he can wear out Foreman.

If we take the BEST of each fighter, sure they could beat anyone the Rock beat, but this is a Career, they are HUMAN, they may get in the fight out of shape(As Tyson did) or overlook something(As Ali did vs Norton) or the guy makes it to the 7 round to ko Foreman.

Anyman can beat anyman, when they get in the ring. Yes it was a bit of luck for Marciano to go 49-0(As in Marciano knocking down Larzarza in round 4, or the ko punch on Walcott)

Its possible, but you guys are making it seem much easier than it was.

Mendoza · 08-08-2007, 08:53 PM

I don’t think Frazier would go undefeated in 49 fights. I don’t think Rocky would take have many title defense in the 60’s / 70’s either. I do think Rocky would win one match of five matches vs Ali and Foreman. Each man was probably better off in their own era.

Marciano Frazier · 08-08-2007, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Duke

That is if he would be allowed to fight at heavyweight!

Bob Foster weighed sub-190 and fought for the heavyweight championship twice.

Marciano Frazier · 08-08-2007, 10:42 PM

I'm doubtful that Frazier would've gone 49-0 under the same circumstances as Marciano. Let us not forget that, in his real career, after establishing himself as champion, he did stagnate and fall out of shape between the first Ali and first Foreman fights. In order to manage a 49-0 run with wins over all the men Marciano beat, you need an unbelieveable degree of consistency, both physical and mental. That's something which all the Marciano detractors who carelessly say "Well, X-and-X would have been 49-0 too if they'd fought in Marciano's era" tend to forget about.

As for Marciano, I think he would do about the same as Frazier did, except he wouldn't let himself go a little and become complacent between Ali and Foreman, and so might manage to win two out of three against the declining Ali.

Dempsey1238 · 08-09-2007, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave krieg

If Frazier would of fought in Marciano's era of course he would of have been 49 and 0 but so would tons of other good heavyweights but on the other hand if Marciano fought in Frazier's era he would of lost countless times.Foreman would of crushed him,Ali would of beat him so would a fighter like Chuvalo,Norton,Lyle,Shavers,Holmes,Quarry,Bonavena ect ect .

Chuvalo???? Quarry????? Bonavena??? L Spink???? Either you are HIGHLY underated the Rock to a mere bum, or your talking out of your rear. I take option 2.

OLD FOGEY · 08-09-2007, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave krieg

If Frazier would of fought in Marciano's era of course he would of have been 49 and 0 but so would tons of other good heavyweights but on the other hand if Marciano fought in Frazier's era he would of lost countless times.Foreman would of crushed him,Ali would of beat him so would a fighter like Chuvalo,Norton,Lyle,Shavers,Holmes,Quarry,Bonavena ect ect .

Well, Ali himself, back in 1976 in a program with Howard Cosell in which he judged the other great heavyweights, said he "honestly thought Marciano was better than Frazier," Frankly, I see no reason for him to make such a statement, as it cuts against his "I am the greatest" view, if he didn't believe it.

Dempsey1238 · 08-09-2007, 08:47 AM

Of couse Ali was in the ring with Marciano and Fraizer. He spar 100 of hours with the Rock of couse. And he was impress with Marciano, mostly noted is the abilty to slip the jab of couse. And Marciano was 45 years old. Marciano made a good account for himself in the Ali computer fight to be able to impress Ali of couse. And Ali had the 3 wars with Fraizer. So if ANY one should make a guess on who was better, I think Ali should be though on on first hand just for being in the ring with both of em. Yeah one was a computer fight, but it was REAL sparing in compares to body punchings. So Ali got some ideal on how a REAL fight would have went.

janitor · 08-09-2007, 08:54 AM

It is not a given that Marciano goes 49-0 in Marciano's era if we run the experiment over again.

Personaly I give him one chance in three.

Dempsey1238 · 08-09-2007, 01:54 PM

True, Marciano was VERY lucky a few times. Walcott 1, LarSarza1(The knockdown in round 4 save Marciano from the jaws of defeat) And maybe Charles 2. But Marciano control that fight, loseing only 1 round, and the doc(Who was the ONLY one that can stop the fight) were not stopping that fight in a championship any way.

OLD FOGEY · 08-09-2007, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dempsey1238

True, Marciano was VERY lucky a few times. Walcott 1, LarSarza1(The knockdown in round 4 save Marciano from the jaws of defeat) And maybe Charles 2. But Marciano control that fight, loseing only 1 round, and the doc(Who was the ONLY one that can stop the fight) were not stopping that fight in a championship any way.

Yes, but you could look at the LaStarza fight was one in which only bad luck for Marciano made it as close as it was. A foul took a round away from Marciano and gave it to LaStarza, a two round swing. Without that foul, Marciano would have won a unanimous decision. Also, the knockdown did not count for anything as the fight was scored on rounds.

And, I might ask. Why was he lucky against Walcott? He knocked him out. The same with Charles. Yes, theoretically he could have lost, but he pulled out the fights by knockout.

Dempsey1238 · 08-09-2007, 02:28 PM

Marciano pull victory from the jaws of defeat. Walcott had 3 rounds to go to retain his title. Even if Marciano WON the last 3 rounds, it would have ended up a draw. Marciano did trick Walcott with the feit to get that punch in. But all the same, that was one of thsos 2 close for comfort type wins for Rocky.

Dempsey1238 · 08-09-2007, 02:30 PM

Yes the first LarSarzra fight was SCORE by rounds. But the rounds ended up turning the fight into a draw. So they went to the point system. The knockdown gave Marciano the extral points needed to win the fight.

08-08-2007, 03:54 PM	#18
Dempsey1238 Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,352 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era From Janitor from Last YEAR. Something to think about before you guys just claim, that anyfighter would clean house on Marciano's era. Other poster said it this way when Fraizer vs Marciano's oppentions. And I sort of agree with him. Joe Frazier vs Rocky Marcianos opposition In this scenario our young Joe Frazier dose not enjoy the benefits of a long amateur career culminating in an olympic gold medal. He is thrown into the professional ranks after only twelve amateur fights. Worse still, by his third profissional fight his sheister manager starts matching him up with people who have records 15-25 wins to give his boys an easy victory. It is not unlikley that our young Joe Fraziers quest to tie the magic 49,0 ends when he picks up a loss in his first twenty fights. Eventually he starts to rise through the ranks and his potential is recognised. His next big test is when he takes his first step up in competiton against the unbeaten Roland LaStraza. Would the Frazier who fought Oscar Bonavena be ready for LaStraza yet? Hard to say. Whether he gets past this hurdle or not he will be hitting the big time by now. Once in the mix with the top contenders Frazier will find this era of small slick fighters particularly well suited to his swarming style. Rex Layne would be a bad stylistc match for him but I am sure he would prevail. He will certainly go on to win the title one way or another. Having fought Walcott twice, Charles twice Moore once and LaStraza twice it is possible that one of them edges him to take a decision at some point in the timeline. Will Frazier tie the magic 49,0? Personaly he is one of the few fighters that I could see doing it but there are a lot of pitfalls along the way early in his career on the way up and late in it also. The thing is, you can NEVER be sure 100 percent that Tyson, Ali or Fraizer would tie the magic 49-0 record had they fought in Marciano's era.
Top

08-08-2007, 03:56 PM	#19
Dempsey1238 Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,352 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era my sort of replie. lol All before the crash of couse. wasnt me, other poster on other fourm, He had Fraizer vs Louis, Johnson's and others comp. Not to say Fraizer would not go unbeating, but there are a lot of pitfalls(As he said)Could Fraizer go 49-0?? Of couse. But there is always the chance he might get upset here or there. Or being too green vs the likes of Eddie Ross(25-0 vs the Rock's 3-0) If they could get though being short change our put in with GUYS over there level, they can get to the 49. Ali could do it, but he was prone of being upset here or there(As with the case of Norton and Spinks) I think Tyson would go to 35 and 0 or something and have that ONE night were he is upset. Foreman?? I would think he COULD do it, but if he can get out of the early going with the Eddie Ross's(When Foreman was 2-0 or something) Than he could do it. I think Larzaza and Walcott, would be his biggest test. Charles has a shot also if he can wear out Foreman. If we take the BEST of each fighter, sure they could beat anyone the Rock beat, but this is a Career, they are HUMAN, they may get in the fight out of shape(As Tyson did) or overlook something(As Ali did vs Norton) or the guy makes it to the 7 round to ko Foreman. Anyman can beat anyman, when they get in the ring. Yes it was a bit of luck for Marciano to go 49-0(As in Marciano knocking down Larzarza in round 4, or the ko punch on Walcott) Its possible, but you guys are making it seem much easier than it was.
Top

08-08-2007, 08:53 PM	#20
Mendoza Dominating a decade East Side VIP Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 14,738 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era I don’t think Frazier would go undefeated in 49 fights. I don’t think Rocky would take have many title defense in the 60’s / 70’s either. I do think Rocky would win one match of five matches vs Ali and Foreman. Each man was probably better off in their own era.
Top

08-08-2007, 10:42 PM	#22
Marciano Frazier Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,482 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era I'm doubtful that Frazier would've gone 49-0 under the same circumstances as Marciano. Let us not forget that, in his real career, after establishing himself as champion, he did stagnate and fall out of shape between the first Ali and first Foreman fights. In order to manage a 49-0 run with wins over all the men Marciano beat, you need an unbelieveable degree of consistency, both physical and mental. That's something which all the Marciano detractors who carelessly say "Well, X-and-X would have been 49-0 too if they'd fought in Marciano's era" tend to forget about. As for Marciano, I think he would do about the same as Frazier did, except he wouldn't let himself go a little and become complacent between Ali and Foreman, and so might manage to win two out of three against the declining Ali.
Top

08-09-2007, 08:47 AM	#25
Dempsey1238 Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,352 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era Of couse Ali was in the ring with Marciano and Fraizer. He spar 100 of hours with the Rock of couse. And he was impress with Marciano, mostly noted is the abilty to slip the jab of couse. And Marciano was 45 years old. Marciano made a good account for himself in the Ali computer fight to be able to impress Ali of couse. And Ali had the 3 wars with Fraizer. So if ANY one should make a guess on who was better, I think Ali should be though on on first hand just for being in the ring with both of em. Yeah one was a computer fight, but it was REAL sparing in compares to body punchings. So Ali got some ideal on how a REAL fight would have went.
Top

08-09-2007, 08:54 AM	#26
janitor P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 19,024 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era It is not a given that Marciano goes 49-0 in Marciano's era if we run the experiment over again. Personaly I give him one chance in three.
Top

08-09-2007, 01:54 PM	#27
Dempsey1238 Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,352 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era True, Marciano was VERY lucky a few times. Walcott 1, LarSarza1(The knockdown in round 4 save Marciano from the jaws of defeat) And maybe Charles 2. But Marciano control that fight, loseing only 1 round, and the doc(Who was the ONLY one that can stop the fight) were not stopping that fight in a championship any way.
Top

08-09-2007, 02:28 PM	#29
Dempsey1238 Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,352 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era Marciano pull victory from the jaws of defeat. Walcott had 3 rounds to go to retain his title. Even if Marciano WON the last 3 rounds, it would have ended up a draw. Marciano did trick Walcott with the feit to get that punch in. But all the same, that was one of thsos 2 close for comfort type wins for Rocky.
Top

08-09-2007, 02:30 PM	#30
Dempsey1238 Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 6,352 vCash: 1000	Re: Marciano and Frazier if they fought in each other's era Yes the first LarSarzra fight was SCORE by rounds. But the rounds ended up turning the fight into a draw. So they went to the point system. The knockdown gave Marciano the extral points needed to win the fight.
Top