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Old 10-20-2012, 07:32 PM   #61
rusak
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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Originally Posted by Bollox View Post
Bob Foster's chin was terrible at 175 because he was KO'd numerous times by 200+ pounders. Ok?
Foster was also KO'd by Doug Jones, who wasn't 200 pounds. I'm not saying that Hagler's chin was terrible or anything like that, but the reality is that you are comparing Hagler to guys who moved up the weight classes, something Hagler didn't do.
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Old 10-20-2012, 07:33 PM   #62
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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I think so also. That right hand Hearns landed on Hagler at the beginning of the fight took something out of his remaining career. Some guys get hurt all the time and brush it off. Marvin being hurt was so rare that I think it was something different for him to deal with, and he won the fight but seemed a little gunshy after the Hearns fight. Then he didn't fight for a year and fights Mugabi another hard puncher and he looked out of shape in that one. Like he lost his motivation for fighting a little after Hearns. I think Hagler put his all mentally and physically into the Hearns fight.
Didn't the shot that broke Hearns hand hit Hagler on the forehead area? and also cut Hagler, the forehead is one of the hardest spots on the body/ head so it is not so much that Haglers skull was thicker . Hagler was always in top shape and was a great boxer who did not stick his chin out which is also responable for having a great chin.
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Old 10-20-2012, 07:40 PM   #63
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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Spot on Sal. Hagler 'owned' his division and was extemely proud and protective of it, and of his historical standing in the division while he was fighting. These days Pacquaio is seen as being near the top of the ATG list (very debatable IMO), yet his 27,000 titles are worth not 10% of Henry Armstrong's 3 simultaneous titles. Today's division hopping fighters are distorting boxing history in a negative way. It's all a bit sad, really
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The titles now are worth only the cheap plastic their representative belts are made of. The sport truly is in sad, sad shape.
I couldn't possibly agree more. I'm an enormous fan and admirer of divisional dominance i.e. the traditional way to carving out a legacy and in turn, I don't weigh pound-for-pound heavily on weight jumping. To some, that's the definition of it and I disagree. Many great fighters were successful moving up in weight, but many of them also established themselves in each one by either beating other elite fighters or having an extended stay at the weight, cutting through numerous contenders.

But yeah, if you're going to flop around, none did it quite like Armstrong. In a 13-month span he knocked out Petey Sarron for the World Featherweight crown, beat up Chalky Wright and Baby Arizmendi at lightweight, battered Barney Ross for the World Welterweight title, won a war with Lou Ambers for the World Lightweight title then turned around and defended the Welterweight crown against #1 Ceferino Garcia. No trinkets involved.
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Old 10-20-2012, 07:45 PM   #64
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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I can tell the doofus that posted that is a kid. Only the 20-somethings and younger place any real importance on moving up in weight. That's a product of the times, where titles don't mean anything in boxing anymore, so the only way to get your name out there and garner any money is by constantly jumping weight. That's the cache now. In Hagler's time and before, a world title actually had importance. There wasn't necessarily any impetus to move up in weight like the feel they have to now. You gained notoriety by being a longtime title holder.

I know you know this Bollox, so this of course isn't directed at you.
You mad, nuthugger?

You really know how good someone's chin is when they move up in weight and fight bigger guys. Hearns did this, Leonard did this, Duran, Robinson, etc. Hagler didn't and you're comparing his chin to guys who did.
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Old 10-20-2012, 07:59 PM   #65
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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You mad, nuthugger?

You really know how good someone's chin is when they move up in weight and fight bigger guys. Hearns did this, Leonard did this, Duran, Robinson, etc. Hagler didn't and you're comparing his chin to guys who did.
Well, Kid Gavilan certainly deserves to be rated higher than Hagler in terms of Chin but Hagler was pretty much a definitive natural middleweight, set on establishing a legacy in one of boxing's greatest divisions. These guys aren't blowing smoke about what it meant to be a Champion and 160 to 175 is one of the biggest leaps. There was no inbetween at the time either. Duran moved up out of necessity and Hearns had lots to grown into.
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Old 10-20-2012, 08:06 PM   #66
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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You mad, nuthugger?

You really know how good someone's chin is when they move up in weight and fight bigger guys. Hearns did this, Leonard did this, Duran, Robinson, etc. Hagler didn't and you're comparing his chin to guys who did.
Horrible post and horrible analogies. This is the thing wrong with the rabid generation of Floyd and Pacquaio fans. They put so much emphasize into moving up in weight they forget that it's equally if not more impressive dominating your natural division and taking on all comers.

You saying that Hagler's chin is not proven until he moves up in weight is remedial. At that time the SMW division barely existed, so Hagler literally had to move up to 175.
Can we bash Carl Froch for not really having a 'good chin'? he after all stayed at 168, maybe we should see how well his chin holds up against Yoan Pablo Hernandez?
Marvin Hagler took a barrage of big punchers at 160 and he was hit on numerous occasions by shots that would have koed most MW'S throughout history. That's enough evidence for me in determining the strength of his chin and punch Resistance.

Moving up in weight really pisses me off. There is nothing impressive about taking baby titles from B Rated fighters in various weight classes and flexing some mythical p4p rankings.
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Old 10-20-2012, 08:58 PM   #67
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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Hagler may have steamrolled Tommy, but the shots he absorbed hastened Marvin's decline.
Evidence of Hagler's decline was in the Roldan fight.
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:31 PM   #68
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

From personal experience, I tend to take blows better when I am lifting weights. Stronger neck i guess.
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:33 PM   #69
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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You mad, nuthugger?

You really know how good someone's chin is when they move up in weight and fight bigger guys. Hearns did this, Leonard did this, Duran, Robinson, etc. Hagler didn't and you're comparing his chin to guys who did.

Mad? About what?

No son, I don't really care what some clueless little douchebag thinks about this with your whole two years of interest in the subject. When you know what the hell you're talking about, it will make itself evident, I suppose.

Next.
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:45 PM   #70
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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Didn't the shot that broke Hearns hand hit Hagler on the forehead area? and also cut Hagler, the forehead is one of the hardest spots on the body/ head so it is not so much that Haglers skull was thicker . Hagler was always in top shape and was a great boxer who did not stick his chin out which is also responable for having a great chin.
I am not sure if that was the punch which hurt Tommy's hand. After that he still threw hard punches. I think it was after that exchange before Marvin landed a big right on Hearns. I think the punch which broke his hand was thrown right after Bernstein says "it was hagler initiating it not Thomas Hearns" then punch lands right at the end of that statement.
Actually the cut was caused by Hearns mouthpiece. One day I wanted to find out for sure when the cut happened, so analyzed the tape. it happened with 1:20 1:19 seconds left in the round. Hearns is throwing a right body punch and moving left and Hagler is throwing also a right to Hearns body at the same time and moving left also and Hearns mouthpiece slides across Marvin's forehead. The force of both throwing body punches on the inside at the same time and the force caused the cut from the mouthpiece friction. No one else has ever figured this out or maybe never wanted to. I am 100 percent correct in this. Hearns was tired and when he was tired he sometimes would have his mouthpiece out to help him breath and it happened very accidental.
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:46 PM   #71
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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Evidence of Hagler's decline was in the Roldan fight.
when Marvin was 28? I don't think so. Roldan was trouble for anyone, and that knockdown was a pull down. Roldan gave Hearns,Hagler and Nunn problems. What I think is Hagler's decline was caused by his inactivity after Hearns and his motivation seemed to go down. I think he put his all mentally and physically into his fight with Hearns after Leonard never fought him. I think he wanted to prove something.
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:50 PM   #72
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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when Marvin was 28? I don't think so. Roldan was trouble for anyone, and that knockdown was a pull down. Roldan gave Hearns,Hagler and Nunn problems. What I think is Hagler's decline was caused by his inactivity after Hearns and his motivation seemed to go down. I think he put his all mentally and physically into his fight with Hearns after Leonard never fought him. I think he wanted to prove something.
Aside from the inevitable grip of aging, Hagler's biggest problem then was the fact that by 1985, he was only fighting once a year. Not the right thing to do for a fighter getting up in years.
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Old 10-20-2012, 09:55 PM   #73
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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Aside from the inevitable grip of aging, Hagler's biggest problem then was the fact that by 1985, he was only fighting once a year. Not the right thing to do for a fighter getting up in years.
he was fighting more than that. Compared to Hopkins now , he was very young. He had a long career I agree, but in the end he ended up with 398 rounds total. 1984 he fought two times Roldan and Hamsho in pretty much the same time as his fights in 1984 were spread out, and in 1983 3 times Sibson,Scypion and Duran, After Hearns is when he took one year off and then fought Mugabi. Then after Mugabi he mentioned retiring after Ray came out of retirement, yet then fought Ray over a year after the Mugabi fight, but he was active enough. 3 fights 1981, 2 in 1982, 3 in 1983 2 in 1984, 1 in 1985, 1 in 1986 and 1 in 1987 and retired. I just don't think he was diminishing much prior to Hearns. He was always fighting tough guys. You know the interesting thing is Hagler and Hearns both retired with 67 fights and Hagler has 398 rounds and Hearns 380 but Hearns fought another 25 times after the Hagler fight, Hagler only 2 times after Hearns.
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Old 10-20-2012, 10:00 PM   #74
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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he was fighting more than that. 1984 he fought two times Roldan and Hamsho in pretty much the same time as his fights in 1984 were spread out, and in 1983 3 times Sibson,Scypion and Duran, After Hearns is when he took one year off and then fought Mugabi. Then after Mugabi he mentioned retiring after Ray came out of retirement, yet then fought Ray over a year after the Mugabi fight, but he was active enough. 3 fights 1981, 2 in 1982, 3 in 1983 2 in 1984, 1 in 1985, 1 in 1986 and 1 in 1987 and retired. I just don't think he was diminishing much prior to Hearns. He was always fighting tough guys.

That's what I'm saying.......one in 1985, one in 1986, then Leonard in '87. That's not enough. Yes, he was active enough in '81-'83, but that doesn't speak to latter years, when he was pushing and past 30. Big difference.
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Old 10-20-2012, 10:06 PM   #75
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Default Re: Why Hagler Could Take a Punch

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That's what I'm saying.......one in 1985, one in 1986, then Leonard in '87. That's not enough. Yes, he was active enough in '81-'83, but that doesn't speak to latter years, when he was pushing and past 30. Big difference.
30 is not exactly a tremendous age considering he was never knocked out to that point or ever. I think his decline was due to mental and not physical. He was active up until Hearns and then he dropped his activity, although he was scheduled to fight Mugabi in Nov of 85 and his nose was broken in sparring, Something like that, I forget the details. He still had 2 fights in 1984 which were the same amount as his fight in 1982, and since he fought at the end of 1983,, that means from Nov to Oct of 1984, he fought 3 times, which is not really inactive. Then after that fight with Hamsho in the rematch, he signed to fight Hearns, which the hype for the fight took longer. I just think it was his mental energy which went down.
Some people think he looked great with Sibson and not with Roldan, but I still think Roldan makes guys look bad. Hamsho in the rematch never hit Hagler, and actually resorted to the head ramming because he couldn't land clean on Marvin.
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