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Old 08-08-2007, 07:04 PM   #16
McGrain
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
McG. where do you rank Burley in your middleweight rankings and P4P?

I ask because although i think he would rank top 5 (Middle) in head to head rankings, I cannot find a place in the top 8, just on the opponents he beat.
I absolutley agree with you. Though he beat some very good fighters, he never got a Sugar or an Armstrong so what you say is true.

I have him behind Greb and Sugar at middle head to head and that's it.

Post war, i have him top ten pound for pound.
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:05 PM   #17
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by Manassa
I very much doubt that.
Well there are different types of duck for sure. I don't mean to imply that he was scared of Burley - not for a second.

But Burley was ranked, the best around, and Armstrong didn't take him on.
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by Manassa
Maybe Armstrong meant Robinson would have always beaten him, but only if he ran.

I got this from the New York Times:

Ray Robinson, Harlem welterweight who is now a corporal in the Army, enjoyed a brisk workout at the expense of the veteran Henry Armstrong in the star bout of ten rounds at Madison Square Garden last night. Robinson enjoyed it, but nobody else in the Garden got any satisfaction from the spectacle, which was as tame as a gymnasium workout between father and son.

It doesn't tell us much apart from there wasn't much action. It supports both stories without giving a definitive answer.
fair enough. How did you get your hands on that?
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
fair enough. How did you get your hands on that?
Nothing special, I just went on the site and searched it. You need to pay to read more, that's just the first paragraph.
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by McGrain
I absolutley agree with you. Though he beat some very good fighters, he never got a Sugar or an Armstrong so what you say is true.

I have him behind Greb and Sugar at middle head to head and that's it.

Post war, i have him top ten pound for pound.
interesting, it depends what criteria people use when ranking P4P, as some go off H2H, Opponents beat, Significance and all of the above.

why do you separate, pre/post world war 2 rankings, your not alluding to a certain paradigm shift are you
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:14 PM   #21
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
why do you separate, pre/post world war 2 rankings, your not alluding to a certain paradigm shift are you
Not me pal!

What it is is; the job is just to big for me. When I try to join up my pre(very short) and post(a bit bigger) lists together I start losing the plot and throwing things about, shouting at nothing, then the mrs goes "what is it that's wrong with you this stuff isn't important then I have to spend 10 minutes explaining why it is imporatant, and by the end of the tirade i've done nothing but convince myself that it just isn't important.

Breaking the lists in two just makes it more manageable.

As far as that whole shift thing goes, i just don't see it. I think the top men of 1900 would beat the bottom men of 2000 and vice versa.
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:22 PM   #22
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by tobkhan
Youīre talking like Zivic wouldnīt be a dangerous opponent.
No i'm not.

Quote:
That guy beat Armstrong two times. So no he didnīt duck Burley.
He did. You can say "failed to fight" if you like, like I said to Manassa, there are different kinds of duck.

I'll say it again: Burley was the best, Armstrong didn't fight him.

In Armstrong's defence, Burley had a load of hand problems around that time and was out of the game for five months, a long time in those days as you know.

Quote:
Fighting a dangerous opponent instead of another dangerous opponent isnīt ducking. Itīs about the circumstances not about ducking.
There is some truth in this - but here we have an occasion where Armstorng fights one fighter who lost out 2-1 in a series (which almost certainly should have been 3-0) instead of the winning fighter. That would actually not be seen as acceptable these days.




Quote:
When where the other two occasions and who did Armstrong fight instead?
Arizmendi was the first one. After that Burley was out of the picture with hand injuries and was in and out of the ring. Armstrong did that amazing thing with Garcia. Then there was Furr, which was a bit ridiculous, before the Zivic thing which was heinous.
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Old 08-09-2007, 06:08 AM   #23
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by McGrain
He held two wins over Zivic when he Armstrong, having been approached by Burley's people, chose to fight Zivic.

Also, during the two following approaches, Armstrong's people apparentley indicated they were of back down the divisions. Then they fought another one at Welter.

Burley was ranked second in the world behind Ralph Zanelli at this time. I think.
Zivic held Burleys contract,he bought it after fighting him ,some say to use Burley as a"Policeman",others so that he could avoid Burley himself.
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Old 08-09-2007, 06:12 AM   #24
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by Manassa
Armstrong's top wins, while great, are not on the same level of Ezzard Charles', for instance. But what really does it is Armstrong's consistency during a certain period where he went 59-1-1 (both the loss and draw being very controversial), scoring 51 knockouts, over three original weight classes, beating six Hall of Famers. It's incredible. Though only a lightweight, Armstrong holds the record for welterweight title defenses!

It's a common misconception that Armstrong was finished after he lost his titles, but in reality, he was always in the picture; though Armstrong slowed down quickly, he still managed to beat top quality fighters. He trashed Hall of Famers Fritzie Zivic, Lew Jenkins (for a second time) and Sammy Angott and also beat the excellent Willie Joyce, among others, such as former champion Tippy Larkin who he knocked out with a single punch. The massive hitting Al Davis had his teeth busted. Contender Ralph Zanelli was hammered twice.

Armstrong was pretty formidable before his famous peak run as well, where he beat a couple more Hall of Famers and several contenders such as Mike Belloise and Juan Zurita.
Towards the end Armstrong may not have been the perpetual motion dynamo he had been but I thinkhe was still formidable ,the problem was greedy management kept him fighting when he should have been resting,and letting the scar tissue around his eyes heal.
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Old 08-09-2007, 06:13 AM   #25
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Zivic held Burleys contract,he bought it after fighting him ,some say to use Burley as a"Policeman",others so that he could avoid Burley himself.
Yes, but not until after he came to the title. Though the Armstrong "duck" was probably the one that really finished Burley's chances at being champion (perversely), Zivic buying his contract was pretty much the nail in the coffin.

Zivic sent him all over the country to keep from fighting him. Basically there were two welters from the same city, one clearly better than the other, with the weaker fighter having somehow come to the title and now owning his nearest rivals contract. F*cking disgusting is the only way to surmise that situation really.
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Old 08-09-2007, 07:02 AM   #26
Jack Dempsey
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by jyuza
Someone in the forum has a beautiful poster of Henry, it would be great if he could post it.

Of course Henry is one of the best ever. A true fighting machine !

One of my favorite fighter, definitely.
Might be me

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Old 08-09-2007, 07:05 AM   #27
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by Jack Dempsey
Might be me

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What does your wife make of the stuff you plant all over her house?

Or is it all in you "den"?
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Old 08-09-2007, 07:09 AM   #28
Jack Dempsey
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by McGrain
What does your wife make of the stuff you plant all over her house?

Or is it all in you "den"?
She tends to roll her eyes as another picture is sneaked in, they are mostly in my stairway and landing, I try to make sure they look classy

Last edited by Big Ears; 04-23-2006 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 08-09-2007, 11:17 AM   #29
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by Jack Dempsey
She tends to roll her eyes as another picture is sneaked in, they are mostly in my stairway and landing, I try to make sure they look classy
By the way, I'm at the Boatyard in October. You?
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Old 08-09-2007, 11:26 AM   #30
Jack Dempsey
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Default Re: Henry Armstrong

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Originally Posted by Manassa
By the way, I'm at the Boatyard in October. You?
Thats the one I'd go for, I'm hoping (fingers crossed) that there are still tickets left when my birthday comes around, I'll let you know
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