Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-10-2007, 08:09 PM   #1
Russell
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,494
vCash: 118
Default Luther McCarty

Maybe one of the greatest could of beens of all time?

He only boxed for two years before dying but he seemed like he was destined for greatness. Supposedly a fight with Johnson was seriously being considered, as he was a white hope...


Imagine if he'd beaten Johnson instead of Willard?
Russell is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 08-11-2007, 04:54 PM   #2
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,232
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
Maybe one of the greatest could of beens of all time?

He only boxed for two years before dying but he seemed like he was destined for greatness. Supposedly a fight with Johnson was seriously being considered, as he was a white hope...


Imagine if he'd beaten Johnson instead of Willard?
Certainly a big what if of heavyweight history. I consider him on a par with Ibeabuchi as a might have been.

Last edited by janitor; 08-11-2007 at 05:12 PM.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 05:11 PM   #3
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,232
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

Here is what McCarthy's manager said of him-

"Luther McCarty was a natural born fighter. He had only two years of ring experience. Never had seen a boxing bout until he was forced in as a substitute at a show he attended with some cowboy friends. Fate prevented him from proving what I claim for him, that he was the greatest heavyweight fighter of all time. He was a combination of speed, cleverness, gameness and hitting ability. Immune to punishment, loving the lust of battle, gifted with every physical requirement."
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 06:06 PM   #4
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,215
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Here is what McCarthy's manager said of him-

"Luther McCarty was a natural born fighter. He had only two years of ring experience. Never had seen a boxing bout until he was forced in as a substitute at a show he attended with some cowboy friends. Fate prevented him from proving what I claim for him, that he was the greatest heavyweight fighter of all time. He was a combination of speed, cleverness, gameness and hitting ability. Immune to punishment, loving the lust of battle, gifted with every physical requirement."
I wonder how much of McCarty was hype? Remember this was the white hope era of boxing and any white heavyweight who had a chance to defeat Johnson might have been over rated in the eyes of the press. McCarty was not undefeated before his fatal ring fight. GunBoat Smith beat more impressive fighters while Johnson was champion. Smith was White too, but he never got a shot.

How good was McCarty? Good. If he was very good Johnson could have avoided him too.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2007, 06:16 PM   #5
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,232
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I wonder how much of McCarty was hype? Remember this was the white hope era of boxing and any white heavyweight who had a chance to defeat Johnson might have been over rated in the eyes of the press.
I think that it is fair to say that he was the best of the white hopes.

Quote:
GunBoat Smith beat more impressive fighters while Johnson was champion. Smith was White too, but he never got a shot.
Smith crossed the street whenever he saw Johnson. He was happy to sit on his "white" alphabet title.

Quote:
How good was McCarty? Good. If he was very good Johnson could have avoided him too.
Some sources suggest that Johnson McCarthy was already signed when McCarthy died.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 07:55 AM   #6
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,215
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

Quote:
I think that it is fair to say that he was the best of the white hopes.


I would say McCarty had ability, but Gunboat Smith was clearly the best of the white hopes. Smith once knocked Johnson out in a sparring session. Gym stories aside, from 1910-1914 Smith beat the following fighters:

Frank Moran, Jess Willard, Fireman Flynn, Carl Morris, Tony Ross, Sam Langford, Jack Blackburn, and Arthur Pelky. This list wins over name fighters is more impressive than Johnson’s entire lot of title defenses.

Moran, Willard, Ross, and Flynn received title shots from Johnson himself. Smith did not! Here merely beat them, than Johnson picked the loser. Smith beat a prime Sam Langford, and everyone knows Johnson would not fight Langford as champion. In addition, Gunboat Smith beat many of the other white hopes out there. The White hope era is completely mis-understood. While being white got you the title shot, the fighter had to be flawed in Johnson’s eyes for him to accept the match. It is ironic that the two best “ white hopes “ in terms of ring ability in Smith and McCarty did not received title shots. Willard did, and he defeated Johnson. Moran, who was a solid contender gave Johnson a very close fight.

Quote:
Smith crossed the street whenever he saw Johnson. He was happy to sit on his "white" alphabet title.

Smith was Johnson sparring partner at times. He was not afraid of Johnson at all, but he was smart enough to know who was paying him.

Quote:
Some sources suggest that Johnson McCarthy was already signed when McCarthy died.


I have heard this. If it is true, then I believe McCarty was more hype than ability. Johnson risked little as champion.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 08:18 AM   #7
Sam Dixon
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 229
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

If anyone is at all curious, here's an extensive writeup on McCarty's last fight (and plenty of other info on him too) as reported by The Calgary Herald on May 26th, 1913;

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

That links you to page seven of the actual newspaper, but as you would expect, that unfortunate occurance also made the front page of the paper, as well, and you can find further reading there.
Sam Dixon is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 09:05 AM   #8
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,232
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I would say McCarty had ability, but Gunboat Smith was clearly the best of the white hopes. Smith once knocked Johnson out in a sparring session. Gym stories aside, from 1910-1914 Smith beat the following fighters:

Frank Moran, Jess Willard, Fireman Flynn, Carl Morris, Tony Ross, Sam Langford, Jack Blackburn, and Arthur Pelky. This list wins over name fighters is more impressive than Johnson’s entire lot of title defenses.
Gunboat Smith is not realy a white hope. He was white yes but he would have been part of the boxing scene Johnson or no Johnson.

Quote:
The White hope era is completely mis-understood. While being white got you the title shot, the fighter had to be flawed in Johnson’s eyes for him to accept the match. It is ironic that the two best “ white hopes “ in terms of ring ability in Smith and McCarty did not received title shots. Willard did, and he defeated Johnson. Moran, who was a solid contender gave Johnson a very close fight.
Johnsons primary motivation was money. He esentialy met the title challengers whose managers could offer him the biggest advance whether they were good bad or indiferent.



Quote:
Smith was Johnson sparring partner at times. He was not afraid of Johnson at all, but he was smart enough to know who was paying him.
Smith confided to friends that he did not want to fight Johnson untill he was a few years older.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 09:36 AM   #9
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,215
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

Janitor,

Smith was a definite white hope. The cyber boxing zone reports:

“Smith was lean, quick and crafty - and a sizzling hitter; He was a very good boxer who moved well and hit sharply with both hands; Slightly larger than a light heavyweight, he hit like a heavyweight

Smith was a White Hope of the teens who fought all-comers; From March 23, 1912 when he knocked out "Battling" Jack Brooks until he lost to Jim Coffey on November 29, 1915, he was a "hot item" in the heavyweight division; His list of opponents reads like a "Who's Who of the Teens"

Among those he defeated during his career were Jess Willard, Sam Langford, Battling Levinsky, Carl Morris, Frank Moran, "Fireman" Jim Flynn, "Bombardier" Billy Wells, Jim Stewart, Jim Savage, Tony Ross and George "Boer" Rodel

He won the White Heavyweight Championship in 1914 when he knocked out Arthur Pelkey; Six months later he lost the title to Georges Carpentier on an "ill-called" foul “


There you have it. While I agree that Johnson shrewdly picked and choose his “ white hopes “ , you have to admit that Smith was too good for Johnson to risk. If it were Moran, Ross, Willard, or Flynn who beat Smith, then Johnson might have given Gunboat Smith a title shot. As it was it was Smith who defeat these “ white hopes “. Johnson picked the losers that Smith beat. The history is there for us to read.

In addition to good size, and ability, Smith also had a good chin in his prime years. There is a reason Johnson never selected either Smith or McCarty. They were the best of the white hopes. Over time the meaning of words can change. White Hope meant a fighter was white and could not fight. Smith was only white. He was not a “ White Hope “. Smith could fight.

I gather you a big Johnson fan. Johnson’s body of work stands on its own.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 09:57 AM   #10
GazOC
Guest Star for Team Taff
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Spion Kop
Posts: 30,799
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

The contrast in Pelkeys career before and after the McCarty fight is amazing.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
GazOC is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 10:05 AM   #11
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,232
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Janitor,

Smith was a definite white hope. The cyber boxing zone reports:

“Smith was lean, quick and crafty - and a sizzling hitter; He was a very good boxer who moved well and hit sharply with both hands; Slightly larger than a light heavyweight, he hit like a heavyweight
Smith is often listed as a white hope but he is not one of them. He was not a direct product of the white hope tournaments like say Morris, McCarthy or Pelkey.

Quote:
Among those he defeated during his career were Jess Willard, Sam Langford, Battling Levinsky, Carl Morris, Frank Moran, "Fireman" Jim Flynn, "Bombardier" Billy Wells, Jim Stewart, Jim Savage, Tony Ross and George "Boer" Rodel

He won the White Heavyweight Championship in 1914 when he knocked out Arthur Pelkey; Six months later he lost the title to Georges Carpentier on an "ill-called" foul “
I am not questioning Smiths credentials. I will however suggest that he vascilated when offers to fight Johnson were put on the table while Willard grabed his offer with both hands.

Quote:
There you have it. While I agree that Johnson shrewdly picked and choose his “ white hopes “ , you have to admit that Smith was too good for Johnson to risk. If it were Moran, Ross, Willard, or Flynn who beat Smith, then Johnson might have given Gunboat Smith a title shot. As it was it was Smith who defeat these “ white hopes “. Johnson picked the losers that Smith beat. The history is there for us to read.
Your logic is misguided. You are saying-

"Fighters A, B, and C were active during Johnsons title reign and he did not fight them therfore I conclude that he avoided them"

I am not saying he didnt necisarily but the real story is inevitably much more complex than that. Politics always came into play and there are wranglings and machinations.

One fact which dose stand out is that Johnson efectively held the title hostage demanding cash advances har greater than previous champions had. The guys who got to fight him were often those whose backers could come up with these advances. Johnson was ofered far more for fighting Fireman Flyn than he was for fighting Sam Langford for example.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 01:06 PM   #12
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,215
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

Quote:
Smith is often listed as a white hope but he is not one of them. He was not a direct product of the white hope tournaments like say Morris, McCarthy or Pelkey.


Smith defeated Morris and Pelky. He defeated Willard, Moran, Ross, Wells, Rodel et al. The bald truth is Smith’s record vs “ white hopes was better than Johnson. Smith victory over Langford, a man who absolutely destroyed many White hopes likely meant he was the #1 contender for a 1-2 year period while Johnson was champion. I can’t see anyone saying Smith was not a white hope unless they under stand the genesis of the word was meant to describe a bad white heavyweight with little chance of beating Johnson. Smith had a real chance of beating Johnson which is why they never fought in a stakes match. As I mentioned Smith was more impressive vs the same opponents, and dared to fight some talented black heavyweights that Johnson avoided as champion.


Quote:
I am not questioning Smiths credentials. I will however suggest that he vascilated when offers to fight Johnson were put on the table while Willard grabed his offer with both hands.


This is not so. The heavyweight championship of the world was Johnson show. Johnson was his own manager. He picked the where’s and the when’s. There was no commission back then forcing him to fight anyone.


Quote:
Your logic is misguided. You are saying-

"Fighters A, B, and C were active during Johnsons title reign and he did not fight them therfore I conclude that he avoided them"

I am not saying he didnt necisarily but the real story is inevitably much more complex than that. Politics always came into play and there are wranglings and machinations.

One fact which dose stand out is that Johnson efectively held the title hostage demanding cash advances har greater than previous champions had. The guys who got to fight him were often those whose backers could come up with these advances. Johnson was ofered far more for fighting Fireman Flyn than he was for fighting Sam Langford for example


Johnson did not draw well vs Flynn at all. A mere 9,000 or so saw the match. If Johnson had signed to fight GunBoat Smith in his adopted home town of Chicago, he’d fill Wrigley field. If Johnson had signed to fight Langford, Jeanette, or McVey in England or France, he would have a huge purse too. Langford. My point here is Johnson made his own fights as champion. The fact that he picked softer touches and left the more qualified fighters out in the cold says Johnson did more than draw a color line. He drew an ability line.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 01:23 PM   #13
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,232
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I can’t see anyone saying Smith was not a white hope unless they under stand the genesis of the word was meant to describe a bad white heavyweight with little chance of beating Johnson.
A white hope refers to one of the generation of white fighters who were brought along in an effort to dethrone Johnson. Smith did not emerge out of the white hope campaign so he is not a true white hope.

Quote:
Smith had a real chance of beating Johnson which is why they never fought in a stakes match.
You could argue based on the historical evidence that Johnson ofered Smith a chance to fight him for the title and Smith declined.

Quote:
This is not so. The heavyweight championship of the world was Johnson show. Johnson was his own manager. He picked the where’s and the when’s. There was no commission back then forcing him to fight anyone.
This is verry true but he still had to negotiateterms and a contract with the fighters manager. He could not just say "I will fight Gunboat Smith tomorrow".

Quote:
Johnson did not draw well vs Flynn at all. A mere 9,000 or so saw the match.
Yes but he was paid $30 000 up front before he had even put on a glove. He did not particularly care whether his fights drew or not as long as he got his advance.

Quote:
If Johnson had signed to fight Langford, Jeanette, or McVey in England or France, he would have a huge purse too. Langford.
The fight would certainly have been a big draw but the sums that he was being offerd as an advance to fight Langford were derisory. The year that he fought Flyn for a $30 000 advance he was offered $4000 to fight Langford.

The acid test of his willingness to fight Langford would be whether he would have done it if offered a sum similar to that he was offered for fighting Flyn.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 05:16 PM   #14
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 21,938
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

[quote=janitor]
Quote:


Gunboat Smith is not realy a white hope. He was white yes but he would have been part of the boxing scene Johnson or no Johnson.



Johnsons primary motivation was money. He esentialy met the title challengers whose managers could offer him the biggest advance whether they were good bad or indiferent.





Smith confided to friends that he did not want to fight Johnson untill he was a few years older.
Good post Janitor,the picture of Mcarty,with that momentary flash of sun light illuminating the tragic scene is eerie,cornermen clustrered around him,his manager aghast,hands on his head,he was definitely a what might have been.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2007, 05:21 PM   #15
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 21,232
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Luther McCarty

[quote=mcvey]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Good post Janitor,the picture of Mcarty,with that momentary flash of sun light illuminating the tragic scene is eerie,cornermen clustrered around him,his manager aghast,hands on his head,he was definitely a what might have been.
Quite chilling that one I have to agree. McCarthy genuinely loved boxing. He was fan friendly and happy to bask in the limelight.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013