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View Poll Results: 1995 Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?
BOWE 16 21.62%
LEWIS 58 78.38%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-13-2007, 11:57 AM   #46
godking
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
"Sigh." All this Bowe-bashing requires me to dig through my tapes to '92. That I will do tonight and will then engage one and all Lewis apologists from across the pond in a debate -albeit domani.
Good for you

Then you can see Bowes horrible defense and you can see Bowe being outjabbed by everyone who threw a jab at him.
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:04 PM   #47
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

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Originally Posted by godking
Good for you

Then you can see Bowes horrible defense and you can see Bowe being outjabbed by everyone who threw a jab at him.
With a name like "godking" it is no wonder that you have a penchant for extravagant exaggeration.

Your posts suggest that you are quite young and once you become a fan, you become radicalized. That is unfortunate; and you will pay for that out here where intelligent argument is king. Try to keep an open mind, and perhaps you will learn a thing or too on ESB.
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:34 PM   #48
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Okay.... I've reviewed a few tapes.

There is some revisionist history here concerning Bowe's talent and skills. I suspect that it is at least partly due to his woefully inadequate reign as champion, and his bad showing against Golota. Bowe was also lazy. The biggest disgrace of the 1990s in my book is that Bowe and Lewis did not fight.

Muchmoore is a respectable poster, but I take issue with his idea that Bowe wasn't a big puncher. Bowe was an excellent puncher, and while the PSI wasn't where Lewis's would be, the angles and delivery were superior.

Pontius is also a wise one out here, but his dismissal of Bowe's right would be laughed at by Seldon and Gonzalez, both of whom folded like chairs after Bowe landed a right.

"Godking" is simply wrong when he so casually dismisses Bowe. Bowe was excellent at parrying jabs and his defense was better than average. What is overlooked here is that Futch was a big believer in evasion-based offense. Bowe's style was based on the theory of positioning -he was always looking to be where he should be to punch. This is the Blackburn-Louis background of Futch. It could mean that at times Bowe would eat a jab or take a shot as a cost to get into position. Lewis was either doing offense -or- defense. He was not anywhere near as smooth or as skilled as Bowe was. This Bostonian celebrates Lewis as much as the English, but let's not ignore what is plain.

Lewis was not combining offense and defense as much as Bowe was and he was not preoccupied with positioning. He relied on his reach. Bowe's training also explains his preference for the inside -he wanted to maximize effective punching and any amateur knows that the short shots are the best shots. The ones with leverage.
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:31 PM   #49
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Okay.... I've reviewed a few tapes.

There is some revisionist history here concerning Bowe's talent and skills. I suspect that it is at least partly due to his woefully inadequate reign as champion, and his bad showing against Golota. Bowe was also lazy. The biggest disgrace of the 1990s in my book is that Bowe and Lewis did not fight.

Muchmoore is a respectable poster, but I take issue with his idea that Bowe wasn't a big puncher. Bowe was an excellent puncher, and while the PSI wasn't where Lewis's would be, the angles and delivery were superior.

Pontius is also a wise one out here, but his dismissal of Bowe's right would be laughed at by Seldon and Gonzalez, both of whom folded like chairs after Bowe landed a right.

"Godking" is simply wrong when he so casually dismisses Bowe. Bowe was excellent at parrying jabs and his defense was better than average. What is overlooked here is that Futch was a big believer in evasion-based offense. Bowe's style was based on the theory of positioning -he was always looking to be where he should be to punch. This is the Blackburn-Louis background of Futch. It could mean that at times Bowe would eat a jab or take a shot as a cost to get into position. Lewis was either doing offense -or- defense. He was not anywhere near as smooth or as skilled as Bowe was. This Bostonian celebrates Lewis as much as the English, but let's not ignore what is plain.

Lewis was not combining offense and defense as much as Bowe was and he was not preoccupied with positioning. He relied on his reach. Bowe's training also explains his preference for the inside -he wanted to maximize effective punching and any amateur knows that the short shots are the best shots. The ones with leverage.


Bowe above average defense ?

Guys with above average defense dont get 50 % connect rates against them from Journeymen.

1 Bowe was EASY to hit he did'nt occasionally eat a punch he ate a lot of punches most guys who fought him had a 50 % connect range against him luckily for Bowe he had a good chin which allowd him to take pucnhes he should'nt have taken..

2 Bowe could be and was outjabbed by everyone who jabbed with him

(that includes his ''masterpiece'' in the first Holyfield fight when Holyfield a man with a shorter range stayed on the outside and boxed he was outjabbing Bowe easily)

3 Bowe had at best a decent right hand when he used it

4 What positioning are you talking about Bowe for the most part was a plodding HW.

Bowe best atrtibutes where his infighting skills and chin in other attributes speed jab defense ect Lewis tops him
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Old 08-13-2007, 04:49 PM   #50
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

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Originally Posted by godking


Bowe above average defense ?

Guys with above average defense dont get 50 % connect rates against them from Journeymen.

1 Bowe was EASY to hit he did'nt occasionally eat a punch he ate a lot of punches most guys who fought him had a 50 % connect range against him luckily for Bowe he had a good chin which allowd him to take pucnhes he should'nt have taken..

2 Bowe could be and was outjabbed by everyone who jabbed with him

(that includes his ''masterpiece'' in the first Holyfield fight when Holyfield a man with a shorter range stayed on the outside and boxed he was outjabbing Bowe easily)

3 Bowe had at best a decent right hand when he used it

4 What positioning are you talking about Bowe for the most part was a plodding HW.

Bowe best atrtibutes where his infighting skills and chin in other attributes speed jab defense ect Lewis tops him
This is a poor retort.

I offer you lucid analysis (albeit subjective) and historical context (albeit theoretical) which you are free to disagree with. You respond with goofy emoticons and simple contrariness with no real argument whatsoever. It's kind of akin to schoolyard nonsense:

"I called it"
"No! I called it!"
"No sah! I did first!"

You throw in some weird statitistic but don't reference it at all. And then proclaim that Bowe was a "plodder". I suspect that you do not understand what an angle or a pivot is.
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:16 PM   #51
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

I think Lennox Lewis was possibly at his best in 1995 when he fought Tommy Morrison.

Riddick Bowe had deteriorated a bit by then.
I'm kind of on both sides of the debate about how good Bowe actually was at his best. I agree that Holyfield's foolish tactics accounted for a lot of Bowe's success in their first fight, but I cannot ignore Bowe's skills and power.
He's not as bad defensively or on the outside as some of you are suggesting. Or rather it's worth pointing out that in COMPARISON TO LEWIS his flaws are not worth exposing so zealousless. Lewis himself looked amateurish and scrappy, untidy and off-balance, and not exactly hard to hit in many of his fights in that era. Watch Lewis against Tyrell Biggs, Frank Bruno, and even Lionel Butler (where he has Steward) and you can have a field day picking flaws.

Having said all that, the Lewis who fought Morrison in 1995 showed his best side and showed far more polish and refinement than anything we'd seen from him before and rarely saw after.
Of course, Bowe poses problems and obstacles that Morrison never did, not least because his height and reach are on a par with Lewis and not disadvantaged as Morrison's, but I still think that Lewis would be too much for Bowe.

Bowe probably deserved the number 1 ranking in 1995, but I think Lewis would have beaten him.
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:18 PM   #52
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

[quote=Stonehands89]

Muchmoore is a respectable poster, but I take issue with his idea that Bowe wasn't a big puncher. Bowe was an excellent puncher, and while the PSI wasn't where Lewis's would be, the angles and delivery were superior.

quote]

Bowe was a good puncher but he wasn't a big one punch knockout guy like Lewis, Foreman, Tyson. He hit hard but not ATG quality.
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:43 PM   #53
Stonehands89
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

[quote=Muchmoore]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89

Muchmoore is a respectable poster, but I take issue with his idea that Bowe wasn't a big puncher. Bowe was an excellent puncher, and while the PSI wasn't where Lewis's would be, the angles and delivery were superior.

quote]

Bowe was a good puncher but he wasn't a big one punch knockout guy like Lewis, Foreman, Tyson. He hit hard but not ATG quality.
Fair enough.
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Old 08-13-2007, 07:01 PM   #54
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

I always thought Bowe was more of an attrition puncher - but a very heavy handed one at that.

For instance, in his first fight with Holyfield, he brawls with Holyfield and although Holyfield in the beginning lands more, it was still Holyfield who was tired and seemed to be losing control at round 4 or 5, not Bowe. Maybe it was the weight difference that made Bowe able to take it and come back stronger.
The fact that Bowe has a very high punch output also attests him being more of a wearing-down fighter.

I also think that this is what hurt him in his fights with Golota; Golota freezes against big punches (Lewis, Tyson, Brewster) but did not have that problem with Bowe. Bowe was past his best but then again, he did come fresh off stopping Holyfield for the first time in his career, and he did land some good shots (power is the last thing to go, they say).

I will add that Bowe had a bit of bad luck in facing one of those fighters who had a habit of losing big fights but able to look absolutly great in one or two career performances. A Buster Douglas type of fighter if you will. A bad loss to have on your resume, but i think Golota's technical ability, speed, combinations and movement were nothing short of a great fighter the nights he fought Bowe.

I still think Bowe is rather vurnerable on the outside to getting hit by jabs and straight right hands, which is Lewis' bread and butter. The positioning tactics you are talking about might work against a shorter fighter who could barely hurt him, but i think it would be a monumental mistake against a huge puncher like Lewis. Cheers.
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Old 08-13-2007, 07:35 PM   #55
Stonehands89
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I always thought Bowe was more of an attrition puncher - but a very heavy handed one at that.

For instance, in his first fight with Holyfield, he brawls with Holyfield and although Holyfield in the beginning lands more, it was still Holyfield who was tired and seemed to be losing control at round 4 or 5, not Bowe. Maybe it was the weight difference that made Bowe able to take it and come back stronger.
The fact that Bowe has a very high punch output also attests him being more of a wearing-down fighter.

I also think that this is what hurt him in his fights with Golota; Golota freezes against big punches (Lewis, Tyson, Brewster) but did not have that problem with Bowe. Bowe was past his best but then again, he did come fresh off stopping Holyfield for the first time in his career, and he did land some good shots (power is the last thing to go, they say).

I will add that Bowe had a bit of bad luck in facing one of those fighters who had a habit of losing big fights but able to look absolutly great in one or two career performances. A Buster Douglas type of fighter if you will. A bad loss to have on your resume, but i think Golota's technical ability, speed, combinations and movement were nothing short of a great fighter the nights he fought Bowe.

I still think Bowe is rather vurnerable on the outside to getting hit by jabs and straight right hands, which is Lewis' bread and butter. The positioning tactics you are talking about might work against a shorter fighter who could barely hurt him, but i think it would be a monumental mistake against a huge puncher like Lewis. Cheers.
Good stuff here.

I heartily agree that Golota caught lightening in a bottle -twice, against Bad-Luck Bowe. He looked superb both times. I remember my jaw hitting the floor when I saw that skill, speed, strength, etc. And I thought that the only thing good to come out of Poland was John Paul II.

He was a nut though. Against Lewis and Tyson, I think that the event got him before he even stepped through the ropes -hell, the police had to bring him to the casino to fight Lewis and he was about a 1/2 hour late getting there!

As to Lewis, well, he indeed is stronger and hit harder. But you and I both know how to deal with that: counter the bombs, get inside, and use angles. This was Bowe's forte and I think it is precisely how to deal with Lewis. This is particularly so because Lewis's legs were basic. His stance was too wide at times, and he was off balance at other times. He could step in and out but nothing special. Bowe had beautiful pivots after throwing shots or in the midst of throwing shots.

Bowe would have to be careful but even if he brawls he can dent Lewis's chin as long as he brawls smartly. I don't see Lewis stopping Bowe as likely as the reverse.

My qualifier is history: Newman avoided Lewis -with Bowe's complicity. That shows insecurity.
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Old 08-14-2007, 12:50 PM   #56
godking
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
This is a poor retort.

I offer you lucid analysis (albeit subjective) and historical context (albeit theoretical) which you are free to disagree with. You respond with goofy emoticons and simple contrariness with no real argument whatsoever. It's kind of akin to schoolyard nonsense:

"I called it"
"No! I called it!"
"No sah! I did first!"

You throw in some weird statitistic but don't reference it at all. And then proclaim that Bowe was a "plodder". I suspect that you do not understand what an angle or a pivot is.
No you did'nt you claimed that Bowe had an above average defense which is clearly false you are the only one on this site who believes that .

You claim that Bowe only occasionally ate a punch yet most guys he fought had a 50 % connect rate against him.

And guys who use angles correctly dont get 50 % connect rates against them

You also talk about Bowe being ''smooth'' yet almost everyone who saw Bowe in the 90s remembers him as a plodding hw.

Sorry the super HW you think existed in the Holyfield one did not exist even at his best Bowe had alot of flaws.
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Old 08-14-2007, 12:58 PM   #57
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Since I guess this might be useful, here are a collection of punchstats for punch connection against Bowe.

vs Coetzer 38% (was around 45% until Coetzer's eye swelled shut after the 3rd)
vs Holyfield I 51%
vs Holyfield II 49%
vs Donald 45%
vs Hide 53%
vs Gonzalez 32%
vs Holyfield III 60%
vs Golota I 55%
vs Golota II 64%


I'm afraid I don't have any stats for his earlier fights against guys like Biggs or Tubbs or so on. Compubox didn't cover those, I can attempt an unofficial count myself if needed though.
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Old 08-14-2007, 04:47 PM   #58
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Interesting stats Damond. Those are indeed damn high. I suspect the fridge was not the only reason Bowe faded so fast. 64% in Golota II is sick. That was a butchery that should've been stopped in the 5th round. Great fights though.
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Old 08-15-2007, 03:13 AM   #59
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Wit this one i don't even dig deep technically, i firmly believe Lewis had the wood mentally on Bowe anytime after the Olympics.
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Old 08-15-2007, 06:01 AM   #60
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

I wouldn't mind doing an unofficial punch count for Bowe vs Tubbs one of these days...I scored the fight 5-5, a draw last time I saw it so I'd be interested in rewatching anyway.
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