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View Poll Results: 1995 Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?
BOWE 16 21.62%
LEWIS 58 78.38%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-15-2007, 11:35 PM   #61
Stonehands89
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by godking
No you did'nt you claimed that Bowe had an above average defense which is clearly false you are the only one on this site who believes that .

You claim that Bowe only occasionally ate a punch yet most guys he fought had a 50 % connect rate against him.

And guys who use angles correctly dont get 50 % connect rates against them

You also talk about Bowe being ''smooth'' yet almost everyone who saw Bowe in the 90s remembers him as a plodding hw.

Sorry the super HW you think existed in the Holyfield one did not exist even at his best Bowe had alot of flaws.
Bowe had flaws like any fighter! You react as if I'm a fan of his -I'm not. You fail to understand that his style was offensively-based. He took risks and took shots but had a good chin and did in fact show versatile and intelligent defense -weaving, parrying, slipping, and blocking. I don't overestimate Bowe, but you underestimate him to silly degrees.

The connect percentage on Bowe can also be attributed to his style (Damon's stats do not say that he stopped Hide, Gonzalez, Coetzer, outwarred the quintessential warrior in Holyfield, and stopped him in the rubber) and his sloth (for Golota I he was over 250 and came in looking like a deflated bag for Golota II).

Stats, any and all of them, should be approached carefully. The numbers may not lie, but they don't tell the whole story.

Some saw Louis as "plodding" too -and they fail to understand the subtleties of sidesteps and pivots, like you. Dancing isn't efficient. And for offensive-minded fighters, the objective is clear. Foreman was a plodder and if you see no differences stylistically between Frankenstein Foreman and Big Daddy, then I don't know what to tell you son (make an appointment with an optometrist).
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Old 08-16-2007, 03:28 AM   #62
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Stats, any and all of them, should be approached carefully. The numbers may not lie, but they don't tell the whole story.
That's a little disingenuous, don't you think?
If the numbers had been consistantly low for Bowe, I think you would've accepted them a lot easier. If we're willing to give Bowe points for his attacking aggresion, then we also need to property dock them for leaving himself open to counter-attack due to that as well.

Don't get me wrong, on his day Bowe was a quality HW. I simply do not think that peak Bowe beats a peak Lewis (or a peak Holyfield or Tyson as a matter of fact).
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Old 08-16-2007, 06:56 AM   #63
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

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Originally Posted by streetsaresafer
Same question as before but now if the fight happened in 1995.

While I liked Bowe to take the fight in 93, I like Lewis in 95.

Lewis was now hitting his prime, he had Steward, and his jab and defense had improved enough that I think he would outpoint Bowe in 95.

Prediction - Lewis UD - 116-112, 116-112, 115-113

Again I am curious to see how the votes go in this and how they go in 93. I suspect Lewis will take both polls, but that the 93 vote will be closer. We'll see.
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This is a tough one. Anytime you match two very big and strong fighters in the ring who could both hurt each other, anything can happen. Regardless of who youíre rooting for, the bottom line is we both know either man could TKO/KO the other.

I believe this match would come down to confidence, preparation, and skill. The thing is Bowe was probably better than Lewis in the early 1990ís as a pro, and Lewis was clearly better then Bowe in the later half of the 1990ís. Lewis did not become a complete fighter until after the McCall fight. He a bit shaky vs a very average ****** Fortune, but came into his own when he hired Emanuel Steward as his trainer after the McCall fight.

Lewis appeared to regain his confidence, and iron out the best style for him around the time he fought Tommy Morrison in October 1995. I believe that Lewis would TKO Bowe. Lewis hurt Bowe rather easily in the Olympics. I think he execute a game plan to land the right hand in 1995. If the date was 1992, 1993, or 1994, Iím picking Bowe. But the date given was 1995, so Iím with Lewis.
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Old 08-16-2007, 10:13 AM   #64
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

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Originally Posted by DamonD
That's a little disingenuous, don't you think?
If the numbers had been consistantly low for Bowe, I think you would've accepted them a lot easier. If we're willing to give Bowe points for his attacking aggresion, then we also need to property dock them for leaving himself open to counter-attack due to that as well.

Don't get me wrong, on his day Bowe was a quality HW. I simply do not think that peak Bowe beats a peak Lewis (or a peak Holyfield or Tyson as a matter of fact).
It wasn't disingenuous in the least. I'd stand by it regardless of whether it was a help or a hindrance. And your speculation about what I'd accept is wrong -I've never once given punch stats a second thought in formulating argument.

Bowe is not a 'defense-specialist', and the argument asserted here is not that he actually was, but that a cost of his style was that he would have to take shots. Being aggressive usually translates that way.

The real bias out here is clear to me. This is a 'Bowe vs. Lewis' thread where Bowe's defensive deficiencies are being overly emphasized when he was never stopped at all in his career -unlike a prime (or any other time) Lewis!
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Old 08-16-2007, 10:24 AM   #65
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

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Originally Posted by Stonehands89

The real bias out here is clear to me. This is a 'Bowe vs. Lewis' thread where Bowe's defensive deficiencies are being overly emphasized when he was never stopped at all in his career -unlike a prime (or any other time) Lewis!
This has nothing to do with bias. Simply watching Bowe's fights and Lewis' fights shows that Bowe gets hit often. Very often, even by mediocre fighters. The punchstats attest to that.

And the fact that Bowe has never been stopped has something to do with the fact that he only faced one puncher in his entire career (Hide) whereas Lewis faced Mason, Tua, Klitschko, Bruno, Grant, Tyson (old but powerful still), Morrison, Klitschko, Ruddock, Tucker and Mercer.
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Old 08-16-2007, 10:31 AM   #66
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Moreover, Holyfield had Bowe in desperate trouble with a single left hook. What will happen when Bowe, open to right hands, ships a few overhand rights from Lewis?

The defensive deficiencies of Bowe are being overly emphasized because they happen to be key to the outcome of his fight! I think we can all agree that Lewis will land his best punches on Bowe's chin. If Bowe can't take the overhand right of Lewis he won't win the fight. He's already demonstrated that the Lewis right was enough to floor him in the amateurs. If Bowe couldn't take the punch then why would he be able to take it a few years later? You can't put muscles on chins as they say.
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Old 08-17-2007, 12:34 PM   #67
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
This has nothing to do with bias. Simply watching Bowe's fights and Lewis' fights shows that Bowe gets hit often. Very often, even by mediocre fighters. The punchstats attest to that.

And the fact that Bowe has never been stopped has something to do with the fact that he only faced one puncher in his entire career (Hide) whereas Lewis faced Mason, Tua, Klitschko, Bruno, Grant, Tyson (old but powerful still), Morrison, Klitschko, Ruddock, Tucker and Mercer.
Bowe gets hit often, but there are other reasons that you ignore and that give it context. Look at comparative punch stats of other fights and fighters who are aggressive inside the perimeter.

As to bias.... who, being biased, readily concedes their bias in the midst of an argument?

I have seen reason to suspect a pro-Lewis bias among an inordinate amount of posters on this site for years now. It is not merely in comparison to Bowe, it is the odd celebration of his great technical skill (I don't see it), his glorified legacy and rank (he beat a shot Tyson! a faded Holyfield!), his head-to-head chances, and the chin that so many pretend was solid. The worst of it is when some posters actually decry the McCall stoppage.
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Old 08-17-2007, 12:56 PM   #68
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

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Originally Posted by Doppleganger
Moreover, Holyfield had Bowe in desperate trouble with a single left hook. What will happen when Bowe, open to right hands, ships a few overhand rights from Lewis?

The defensive deficiencies of Bowe are being overly emphasized because they happen to be key to the outcome of his fight! I think we can all agree that Lewis will land his best punches on Bowe's chin. If Bowe can't take the overhand right of Lewis he won't win the fight. He's already demonstrated that the Lewis right was enough to floor him in the amateurs. If Bowe couldn't take the punch then why would he be able to take it a few years later? You can't put muscles on chins as they say.
Holyfield had a wicked left hook that would hurt anyone if it lands flush -like it did on Bowe. Bowe got up and won.

Bowe wasn't floored in the amateurs by Lewis. It was a typical crap stoppage. Different sports, different boxers. Bowe was 21 when Lewis "stopped" him in the amateurs and it should not be so counted on to formulate arguments so much.

You claim that Bowe must be able to take the overhand right of Lewis or he won't win the fight. That is a strange pre-fight analysis. You bring up the amateurs. You talk about muscles on chins as you relate Bowe's going down under a Lewis right. It's as if McCall and Rahman never crashed Lewis into delirium. Lewis was 29 when McCall got him -that's the prime age for boxers.
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Old 08-17-2007, 03:16 PM   #69
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Holyfield had a wicked left hook that would hurt anyone if it lands flush -like it did on Bowe. Bowe got up and won.
He did get up but he was out on his feet for the rest of the round. If Holyfield hadn't faded so badly in the fight he could (and should) have stopped Bowe. If Holyfield can hurt Bowe with the left hook I feel confident that Lewis can do the same with the right hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Bowe wasn't floored in the amateurs by Lewis. It was a typical crap stoppage. Different sports, different boxers. Bowe was 21 when Lewis "stopped" him in the amateurs and it should not be so counted on to formulate arguments so much.
Agreed regarding the different sports observation but the fact is Bowe couldn't get out of the way of Lewis's right hand even back then. Anyway, for the reasons you allude to I don't wanna dwell too much on the amateurs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
You claim that Bowe must be able to take the overhand right of Lewis or he won't win the fight. That is a strange pre-fight analysis. You bring up the amateurs. You talk about muscles on chins as you relate Bowe's going down under a Lewis right. It's as if McCall and Rahman never crashed Lewis into delirium. Lewis was 29 when McCall got him -that's the prime age for boxers.
Not really, seeing as Bowe will eat a few of those right hands during the course of any fight. I'm sure that Bowe can hurt Lewis, especially with the uppercut on the inside but I think Lewis will land more on Bowe than Bowe will land on Lewis. I don't really think what happened in the first McCall and Rahman fights will happen as Lewis will be focused. As I've said before it's no use picking a poor version of Lewis when deciding what would happen in this fight as the poor version would not turn up. Lewis would not walk on to a counter right nor would he come in unacclimatised to altitude, although it's very unlikely the fight would take place where altitude acclimatisation would be neccessary.
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Old 08-17-2007, 04:20 PM   #70
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Who would be landing on who more often is part of the equation, but so isn't the ability to take the shot. You claim, as do the legion of Lewis fans and apologists out here that Lewis "wasn't focussed" when he faced McCall and Rahman. Your reasons for making that claim strike me as circular. Now, sometimes "he wasn't focussed" applies. Ex/ Tyson wasn't focussed for Douglas and was in poor shape. Liston barely trained for Clay. These assertions have evidence.

What makes you think that Lewis wasn't focussed? Lewis didn't strike me as someone who took HWs lightly. He didn't strike me as a champion who was lackadaisical (like Bowe -his greatest fault). Lewis, frankly, had a mountain of character (as well as intelligence). He is a most impressive champion. In fact, after McCall blasted him, he said "I just didn't see it" and couldn't believe what had happened. Lewis attributed it to the inherent risks of boxing and got quite philosophical about it -never once stating that he wasn't in shape.

He should have spoken to ESB first and got a whole litany of excuses at the ready.
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Old 08-17-2007, 05:41 PM   #71
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

The argument for Lewis not being focused is less compelling for the McCall fight than it was the Rahman fight. Lewis though did take McCall lightly and tried to blast out McCall but he wasn't focused in the sense that for Lewis it was just another title defence. I make no excuse for Lewis losing those 2 fights. He lost them. That's the bottom line right there. What I do take issue with is that the rabid anti Lewis brigade (and I'm not suggesting you are one of them) assume that Lewis will leave his chin up in the air and/or not train properly for a fight with the elite of the Heavyweight division if he ever faced them.

In fact, I would suggest that Lewis is more likely to lose against a hard hitting contender like Cleveland Williams or Earnie Shavers than one of the top flight. The reason for this being that he is more likely to repeat the mistakes of the McCall/Rahman I fights against fighters that he either doesn't fear or holds in high regard. The fact that Lewis didn't slip up against the Holyfields, Ruddocks and Tysons etc seems to bear this point out.
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Old 08-17-2007, 06:09 PM   #72
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

All I can say about the McCall fight is to point out that Lewis was at his heaviest weight to date, and that there was a fair amount of internal turmoil regarding Pepe Correa at that time. Basically, everyone in Lewis's camp wanting rid of the guy (the criticism having started since the Tucker fight), while Lewis felt he deserved a fair chance. Allegedly, Lewis even skipped a couple of training camps (according to Maloney) during some disputes.

I don't think he overlooked McCall more than Rahman, but I do think his camp was not as stable and that all seemed to affect him.

You know what...I really miss Eddie Futch. The man was absolute gold to Bowe, absolute gold. And seemed so hurt at Bowe's ****-ups.
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Old 08-17-2007, 07:31 PM   #73
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Good debates boys and i still believe Bowe knew when it cam to Lewis, and was never going to fight him. Look at some of these zombies that came in stiff vs Tyson, beaten before they started. A harsh call on a fighter of this rank, but one i believe. I also remember Bowe being stopped, maybe not the pro's but......
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Old 08-18-2007, 02:46 AM   #74
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

I can't say for certain about that, but Bowe certainly hit the deck several times as an amateur. I don't think there can be many guys to go their entire amateur and pro careers without touching down at least once.

Gonzalez allegedly knocked him down about 3 times during their amateur fight...it was meant to be a bit of a barn-burner, actually. Unfortunately for Gonzalez, Bowe improved while he didn't
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Old 08-18-2007, 03:10 AM   #75
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Default Re: 1995 - Bowe/Lewis - Who Wins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppleganger
He did get up but he was out on his feet for the rest of the round. If Holyfield hadn't faded so badly in the fight he could (and should) have stopped Bowe. If Holyfield can hurt Bowe with the left hook I feel confident that Lewis can do the same with the right hand.

Agreed regarding the different sports observation but the fact is Bowe couldn't get out of the way of Lewis's right hand even back then. Anyway, for the reasons you allude to I don't wanna dwell too much on the amateurs.

Not really, seeing as Bowe will eat a few of those right hands during the course of any fight. I'm sure that Bowe can hurt Lewis, especially with the uppercut on the inside but I think Lewis will land more on Bowe than Bowe will land on Lewis. I don't really think what happened in the first McCall and Rahman fights will happen as Lewis will be focused. As I've said before it's no use picking a poor version of Lewis when deciding what would happen in this fight as the poor version would not turn up. Lewis would not walk on to a counter right nor would he come in unacclimatised to altitude, although it's very unlikely the fight would take place where altitude acclimatisation would be neccessary.
Bowe will not eat a few right hands he will eat most all right hands from Lewis.
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