Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-24-2012, 05:17 PM   #16
he grant
Historian/Film Maker
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,666
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Two ways of look at it. He beat what his era offered... up to a point. He never fought Langford when Langford was near heavy, when McVea was near an accomplished pro, or even offered Jeanette for a proper title shot. That said, he still beat them all at some stage, and bagged the only version of Jeffries he could get. He stumbled with Hart and was less than overwhelming against O'Brien and Johnson. Still, he was the man for the better part of a decade.

On the other hand, what his era offered at heavyweight was slim****ingpickens... Hart, Burns, Ketchell, O'Brien, Ross, Jim Johnson, a shell of Jim Jeffries... that list does not inspire one wax profound.

Obviously, on my list I give more credit to the first perspective than the second. But if someone is going to say his resume stacks up well against later heavyweight eras, yes, I will bristle.
Except for the fact, respectfully, that you are no Johnson scholar and choose to simply ignore the depth of talent he fought and defeated prior to fighting Burns ... I'll leave that to the top Johnson guys like McVey and Apollack to detail ...
he grant is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 05-24-2012, 05:48 PM   #17
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 12,410
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by he grant View Post
Except for the fact, respectfully, that you are no Johnson scholar and choose to simply ignore the depth of talent he fought and defeated prior to fighting Burns ... I'll leave that to the top Johnson guys like McVey and Apollack to detail ...
I would say I have read half a dozen books by, on or focused primarily on Johnson, and many more articles, contemporary accounts and books with discussions on Johnson. I am a hobbyist.

But then, I also have no grandstanding interest in promoting and inflating his legend, whether that promotion be implicit or explicit.

Regarding that talent pre-Burns, I do not think one can bury our collective heads in the sand regarding his opposition. He beat no seasoned, highly accomplished, prime fighters who would be considered heavyweights in today's era. Langford is a great name. I claim him to be in the top 3 pound for pound ever. But he was a small middleweight when Johnson thrashed him. McVea was green as a spring shoot. Jeanette had a mere handful of fights. Sandy Ferguson was a serviceable heavy but not a great. Gardener was middle. Choynski... well, we know what happened there.

Furthermore, I hear much talk of this mythical 210 pound giant known as Johnson. However, he really didn't do much at over 200 pounds but beat a few slobs, middleweights and a shell of a once great fighter. His best victories were at 192 and below, which strains the credence of comparisons to modern heavies.
Seamus is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2012, 06:11 PM   #18
KuRuPT
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,868
vCash: 500
Default Re: Jack johnson

Didn't McVea and Jeanette had plenty of fights under their belt to warrant them being quality wins... In fact, they did well against your boy Sam before jack beat one of them.. The fact is, Johnson didn't just beat them... he beat them ALL VERY EASILY... Something neither of them could do to one another... That speaks volumes how much ahead of them Johnson was... U think giving same 20 more pounds of pudge.. somehow makes him some huge threat to Johnson? I don't agree...
KuRuPT is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2012, 06:29 PM   #19
Surf-Bat
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 3,123
vCash: 500
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by KuRuPT View Post
U think giving same 20 more pounds of pudge.. somehow makes him some huge threat to Johnson? I don't agree...
Just about everybody who was around back then sure seemed to think so. VERY much so, in fact.

You're not giving Sam his due here. He packed on a heckuva lot more than "pudge" as he rose in weight. His power increased significantly as the poundage increased. You think the little 156 lb Sam who fought Johnson could have knocked Harry Wills stiff with a single punch the same way he did later on (when he got bigger and more powerful)? No way.
Surf-Bat is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2012, 06:48 PM   #20
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,366
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Not terrible, not even bad or mediocre. Johnson was a great, watershed fighter, who mercifully, thankfully changed the division.

However, beating a welterweight should not be the high point in your resume to be considered a great heavyweight.
Last time I looked, welters stopped at 147lbs.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2012, 07:02 PM   #21
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,366
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
Two ways of look at it. He beat what his era offered... up to a point. He never fought Langford when Langford was near heavy, when McVea was near an accomplished pro, or even offered Jeanette for a proper title shot. That said, he still beat them all at some stage, and bagged the only version of Jeffries he could get. He stumbled with Hart and was less than overwhelming against O'Brien and Johnson. Still, he was the man for the better part of a decade.

On the other hand, what his era offered at heavyweight was slim****ingpickens... Hart, Burns, Ketchell, O'Brien, Ross, Jim Johnson, a shell of Jim Jeffries... that list does not inspire one wax profound.

Obviously, on my list I give more credit to the first perspective than the second. But if someone is going to say his resume stacks up well against later heavyweight eras, yes, I will bristle.
Johnson signed to fight Jeannette at least twice whilst champion, the fight was pulled by the authorities. McVey displayed no interest in going in with Johnson for a 4th time. Johnson was very reluctant to defend against Langford , but agreed to do so ,or anyone else for $30,000,,The NSC offered only 3,000.

Barney Curley ,and Tex Rickard both stated there was no money to be made in promoting a Johnson,Langford fight in the US,or any other title fight that involved "two darkies". There was a lot of talk about Johnson defending against Langford in Australia ,or France , but it never got beyond talk. But you already know this.

Bottom line. Johnson only defended against midgets who had jaundice, and comebacking has -beens who had to lose 200lbs in 6weeks..All his opponents before winning the title were toughman entrants .
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2012, 07:16 PM   #22
Spooner21
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 140
vCash: 500
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
I would say I have read half a dozen books by, on or focused primarily on Johnson, and many more articles, contemporary accounts and books with discussions on Johnson. I am a hobbyist.

But then, I also have no grandstanding interest in promoting and inflating his legend, whether that promotion be implicit or explicit.

Regarding that talent pre-Burns, I do not think one can bury our collective heads in the sand regarding his opposition. He beat no seasoned, highly accomplished, prime fighters who would be considered heavyweights in today's era. Langford is a great name. I claim him to be in the top 3 pound for pound ever. But he was a small middleweight when Johnson thrashed him. McVea was green as a spring shoot. Jeanette had a mere handful of fights. Sandy Ferguson was a serviceable heavy but not a great. Gardener was middle. Choynski... well, we know what happened there.

Furthermore, I hear much talk of this mythical 210 pound giant known as Johnson. However, he really didn't do much at over 200 pounds but beat a few slobs, middleweights and a shell of a once great fighter. His best victories were at 192 and below, which strains the credence of comparisons to modern heavies.
if you listen to enough fans you will come to the conclusion that all fighters suck
Spooner21 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2012, 07:23 PM   #23
hookfromhell
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,287
vCash: 427
Default Re: Jack johnson

I didnt get to finish watching the Ringside episode on Joe Louis.
They remarked how Jack Johnson didnt support Louis, and maybe
was in a way jealous and hateful towards Louis. Thoughts?
hookfromhell is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-24-2012, 08:26 PM   #24
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 12,410
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Johnson signed to fight Jeannette at least twice whilst champion, the fight was pulled by the authorities. McVey displayed no interest in going in with Johnson for a 4th time.
McVey, who had 50 some fights and 14 years left in his career after his last fight with Johnson (when Sam had less than a dozen fights under his belt), displayed no interest in Johnson?

Actually I think Sam and Jack signed to fight in '12 but Johnson backed out and fought Flynn instead. I'll have to check my sources but I think that's how it went down.
Seamus is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2012, 06:01 AM   #25
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,366
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
McVey, who had 50 some fights and 14 years left in his career after his last fight with Johnson (when Sam had less than a dozen fights under his belt), displayed no interest in Johnson?

Actually I think Sam and Jack signed to fight in '12 but Johnson backed out and fought Flynn instead. I'll have to check my sources but I think that's how it went down.
Johnson signed to fight Billy Wells in 1912 but the UK authorities stopped the fight happening. Johnson agreed to fight anyone for $30,000 McVey's people could not come up with a deposit of good faith to ensure the fight took place this was in 1914. McVey did not fight in the states from 1907 -1914. There was no public demand for the fight . Johnson ,and Mcvey were close friends, and travelling companions. McVey seconded Johnson in several fights includiong his loss to Willard.
Johnson paid for McVey's funeral.

Look forward to more info on this subject from you.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2012, 10:28 AM   #26
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 12,410
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Johnson signed to fight Billy Wells in 1912 but the UK authorities stopped the fight happening. Johnson agreed to fight anyone for $30,000 McVey's people could not come up with a deposit of good faith to ensure the fight took place this was in 1914. McVey did not fight in the states from 1907 -1914. There was no public demand for the fight . Johnson ,and Mcvey were close friends, and travelling companions. McVey seconded Johnson in several fights includiong his loss to Willard.
Johnson paid for McVey's funeral.

Look forward to more info on this subject from you.
The NYT sure makes it seem he shelved a McVea bout in favor of a Flynn bout in the States...

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Understandable as McVea had beaten Langford, Lester, Jim Johnson and Bill Lang over the previous year while the pudgy Flynn was on a roll against scrubs.

Meanwhile, Tom Andrews had a contract signed by Johnson to fight McVey and Langford in Australia which Johnson chose to ignore, saying he was retired... all the while training for a fight with Flynn.

As far as the financial reward of any of this, Johnson had not fought in 18 months, so he was making NO money. And his next fight would be his infamous 10 rounder against Johnson in Paris. It doesn't seem like he had a lot of options.
Seamus is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2012, 11:00 AM   #27
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,366
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
The NYT sure makes it seem he shelved a McVea bout in favor of a Flynn bout in the States...

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Understandable as McVea had beaten Langford, Lester, Jim Johnson and Bill Lang over the previous year while the pudgy Flynn was on a roll against scrubs.

Meanwhile, Tom Andrews had a contract signed by Johnson to fight McVey and Langford in Australia which Johnson chose to ignore, saying he was retired... all the while training for a fight with Flynn.

As far as the financial reward of any of this, Johnson had not fought in 18 months, so he was making NO money. And his next fight would be his infamous 10 rounder against Johnson in Paris. It doesn't seem like he had a lot of options.

The Flynn fight was $$$ for old rope,McVey or Langford would have been a far sterner proposition,and unless Jack was in the shape he was for Jeffries, extremely risky, especially a Langford match imo.
It's not generally reported but Mcvey knocked Langford down in their 1911 Aussie fight.

Johnson took the easy match, which also happened to make the most dough .

Barney Curley was not only the promoter, he was Flynn's manager at the time, the win over Morris allowed Curley to propel Flynn back in to the picture.

Tales of Johnson being offered up to $100,000 to defend against Langford or Jeannette are BS,imo. Thanks very much for the link interesting stuff.Which contradicts my earlier statement.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2012, 11:38 AM   #28
Seamus
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 12,410
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
The Flynn fight was $$$ for old rope,McVey or Langford would have been a far sterner proposition,and unless Jack was in the shape he was for Jeffries, extremely risky, especially a Langford match imo.
It's not generally reported but Mcvey knocked Langford down in their 1911 Aussie fight.

Johnson took the easy match, which also happened to make the most dough .
I'm not condemning Johnson for taking the easy road. If I were to do that, I would have to dump on damn near every heavy champ down the line.

It's understandable if Johnson did it moreso than those who followed. Johnson had to run around the globe and fight a brand of prejudice we can only imagine just to get a sniff of the belt. He probably shot his wad, mentally, psychically, patience-wise, in that pursuit. He can hardly be blamed for taking a paycheck or two (a la Ketchell) after that and enjoying the high life.

But that said, he never fought the best version of McVey. In the end, I don't think any but a very lucky version of McVey, finding him on an off night (which he was known to have) beats him.
Seamus is online now  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2012, 02:33 PM   #29
KuRuPT
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,868
vCash: 500
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf-Bat View Post
Just about everybody who was around back then sure seemed to think so. VERY much so, in fact.

You're not giving Sam his due here. He packed on a heckuva lot more than "pudge" as he rose in weight. His power increased significantly as the poundage increased. You think the little 156 lb Sam who fought Johnson could have knocked Harry Wills stiff with a single punch the same way he did later on (when he got bigger and more powerful)? No way.
Come on Bat... have you seen the pictures... your telling me some of that wasn't pudge? It most certainly was... The best win of his career was beating Gans... that was BEFORE this acclaimed superhuman boost he got from 20+ pounds. Sure, it gave him more pop and probably made him a little more resilent in taking punches from HW... Yet, all that doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't allow him to beat Johnson. As Sam gained weight.. so did Johnson... That cancels one another out.. what we are left with is Johnson EASILY thrashing Sam when they both weighed less.
KuRuPT is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2012, 03:35 PM   #30
mcvey
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: The Garden Of England
Posts: 22,366
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack johnson

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
I'm not condemning Johnson for taking the easy road. If I were to do that, I would have to dump on damn near every heavy champ down the line.

It's understandable if Johnson did it moreso than those who followed. Johnson had to run around the globe and fight a brand of prejudice we can only imagine just to get a sniff of the belt. He probably shot his wad, mentally, psychically, patience-wise, in that pursuit. He can hardly be blamed for taking a paycheck or two (a la Ketchell) after that and enjoying the high life.

But that said, he never fought the best version of McVey. In the end, I don't think any but a very lucky version of McVey, finding him on an off night (which he was known to have) beats him.
I think old Jackie Boy "shot his wad" most nights,sometimes several times.
Johnson always said of his three black nemesis's McVey was the one he feared,I think its BS ,he had the measure of Sam but, as you say, he never met a prime version,and by 1912 Johnson was not "prime" himself. ps Johnson did sign to fight Harry Wills ,not sure why it did not come off.
mcvey is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013