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Old 08-10-2007, 11:37 AM   #1
Bummy Davis
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Default Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis had 2 bad qualities, both men never got off the floor to win, and Lewis never stopped a man after the 8th round(TKO'd Tyson in eight) Tyson stopped 1 fighter Jose Ribalta in the 10th (Ribalta was KO'd earlier before and after his fight with Mike) besides that fight Mike never Ko'd a fighter after the 7th. I would like to hear opinions as to what the reasons were and how this affects there legasy and ATG status
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:44 AM   #2
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Given that Lewis was only ever on the floor twice and denied the right to fight on in one of them i'd say it affects him very little. Look at all those good fighters and punchers he beat without ever being dropped. As for the 8th, he's got plenty of stoppages from 5 to 8. He's also at a slight disadvantage via this exact criteria due to the modern day being 12 rounds. Also, nobody has ever stopped Lewis after the 8th either. He has also never lost a fight that went past 5 rounds, so not stopping anyone after the 8th was sure no disadvantage, he won every one of them.

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Old 08-10-2007, 11:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Bummy - how much more highly do you rank say, hmmmm, Larry Holmes given that he came off the canvas multiple times prior to being an old man and won every single one of them?
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:03 PM   #4
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Getting off the canvas to win a fight shouldnt enhance your status moreso than winning the fight outright without hitting the canvas.
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Old 08-10-2007, 01:15 PM   #5
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

About not stopping fighters late:

In Lewis' case, i think it's because he fights at a measured pace. He usually throws bombs early on to knock the opponent out or keep them at bay. If they can take them, then usually he'll box rather safely, throwing a handful of right hands per round. This makes sure he wins rounds and the fight, but will not often lead to a wear-down-knockout, hence no late knockouts.
Guys like Tua, Holyfield, Mercer and Tucker are known for having an extremely good chin. Hard to get a late stoppage against them.

About Tyson, the reason is because he threw his hardest punches in rounds 1-6. When his opponents were still standing after that they simply had the chin to take his best shot (Tucker, Green) or fought skilled enough to avoid taking too much punishment (Holyfield, Douglas, Lewis, Tillis, Smith although he held too much).

I think it mostly has to do with styles. Tyson emulated his style to Jack Dempsey. Dempsey only scored one knockout past the 8th, a 12th round knockout which should've happened earlier.


About not getting up to win, this is true.

However, this also has something to do with Lewis and Tyson being very hard to knock down. Lewis has been knocked down only 2 times in 11 full years fighting top contenders. I made a list recently and with career number of knockdowns and Tunney had the first place (but barely fought at heavyweight) and shared the second place in being floorest fewest times, together with Marciano.

Tyson has only been floored when he was pummelled for several rounds. The only exception is the knockdown by Holyfield in the 6th round of their first fight.


If both men had weaker chins, maybe Tyson would've been knocked down by Bruno, Tucker or Botha and Lewis by Klitschko, Bruno and Briggs. But in reality were hurt but not down, yet came back to win all those fights anyway.
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Old 08-10-2007, 02:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

lewis was smart he wouldent risk getting hurt in the later rounds if he was winning the fight
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Old 08-10-2007, 08:02 PM   #7
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Bummy - how much more highly do you rank say, hmmmm, Larry Holmes given that he came off the canvas multiple times prior to being an old man and won every single one of them?
One thing I can say about Lewis and Tyson is that they always fought the best,It was Bowe who would not fight Lewis, Lennox was willing, I have to rate Holmes below them, one reason is that Renaldo Snipes would have not been able to put Tyson nor Lewis on the floor and the Shavers that fought Holmes would not have been standing by the 2nd round vs Lennox or Mike. Holmes avoided Dokes,Page,Thomas,Weaver,Coetzee, Witherspoon,Williams. I think that Lewis went into the boxing mode once he tested his best punches on his opponent and he could coast and win, Tyson usually had the guy out and if he did not got in close punched, held, and most of the time won, Tyson got discouraged but IMO Tyson and Lewis would have easily walked through Holmes opposition
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Old 08-10-2007, 09:10 PM   #8
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis had 2 bad qualities, both men never got off the floor to win, and Lewis never stopped a man after the 8th round(TKO'd Tyson in eight) Tyson stopped 1 fighter Jose Ribalta in the 10th (Ribalta was KO'd earlier before and after his fight with Mike) besides that fight Mike never Ko'd a fighter after the 7th. I would like to hear opinions as to what the reasons were and how this affects there legasy and ATG status
Iím glad someone else sees this. While Lewis and Tyson did not score many late round TKOís, or get off the deck to win the reasons as to why differ greatly.

Tyson was a tornado like front runner. He could get his opponent out of there in a hurry. With Tysonís power, few made it past the 8th round. But the pit bull like Tyson lost his aggressiveness as the rounds went on. Those who could weather Tysonís storm and stand up to him ( which was by no means easy ) defeated him. Tyson could take a good punch for sure, but when hearts and courage count for something in boxing too, and here Tyson was lacking.

Lewis much like Tyson had the power to Ko his man early. He never scored later round TKOís because of his great power, and cautious nature. When Lewis had the fight won on points, he played it safe to prevent the other fighter from cashing in on the puncherís chance.

I think Lewis had plenty of heart. He proved it in the Bruno, Mercer, and Klitschko matches. Each match had some rough moments in it for Lewis. I never saw Lewis mentally give up in the ring. With him it was a shaky chin that prevented him from getting up and winning.

One statistic Iíd like to see in boxing is how often does a fighter who is knocked down first get up to win. Iíve watched at least 3,000 boxing matches. In my estimation, a fighter over comes a knockdown to win about every 5 times in every 100 matches.
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Old 08-10-2007, 11:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
Renaldo Snipes would have not been able to put Tyson nor Lewis on the floor and the Shavers that fought Holmes would not have been standing by the 2nd round vs Lennox or Mike. Holmes avoided Dokes,Page,Thomas,Weaver,Coetzee, Witherspoon,Williams. IMO Tyson and Lewis would have easily walked through Holmes opposition
Not this again. Larry and Dokes never should have happened. Larry fought Witherspoon and Williams, and he was going ot fight Coetzee but a promoter was busted and sent to jail, and the location was in disagree ment. It was called off about 2 months before fight night. I might give you Thomas, but still, Thomas didn't make a huge effort to fight Holmes either. You are basing on what you would like, but it isn't exactly possible. All of those guys you are saying Larry should have fought/given rematches would have all been post 1983, so that is 7 fights in 2 years. Thats A LOT of champion ship fights for 1 man to do in 2 years, don't you think? Larry didn't fight Page was because he was offered a great contract to fight 2 low risk guys for a bunch of money, and Holmes was a buisness man (he openly admits he was) and took it. 1 week before his fight with Frazier, he found out Page was his mandatory, and obviously there is no way he can call a fight off 1 week before fight night, and go and fight someone else. And that would be stupid anyway. He was training for a low risk fight, not a hard fight. Larry dropped the belt because he was fed up with King's BS, and the WBC's BS. He promoted his own fights and refused to deal with King because he knew King would find some way to take money out of his pocket. The right hand that Snipes hit Holmes with would have dropped Lewis for sure, and it would have deffinately hurt Tyson, possibly dropped him, hard to say. Neither Tyson nor Lewis would have gotten up from the right hand Shavers hit Holmes with. You say Tyson would blow through Holmes's comp, yet he fought some of the same guys, just they were older, and they gave him a decent fight. Tyson's 2 best wins and performances are over 2 past their primes men who both only took the fight for the money, and both were at least 10 years older than Tyson. Larry wasn't even in fighting shape. Holmes's best wins are over ****ey, Shavers (both), Norton, Mercer, and Cobb (just by shere masacre). IMO the Weaver and Witherspoon of the Holmes fights would give Tyson decent fights. Shavers would always have the punchers chance, especially sence Tyson could be discouraged.
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Old 08-11-2007, 12:15 AM   #10
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Don't really care.

Lewis beat everyone he ever had a fight with and Tyson, regardless of shorcomings was one of the best ever at peak.

These things don't really impact my summary of either.
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Old 08-11-2007, 05:32 AM   #11
ChrisPontius
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1234
1 week before his fight with Frazier, he found out Page was his mandatory



When are you going to realise that your essays turn more people against Holmes than for Holmes?



By the way, which excuse do you think is better:
-"I found out Page was my mandatory one week before i had to fight 9-0-0 Marvis Frazier"
or: "I aint fighting not cokehead" ?
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Old 08-11-2007, 05:33 AM   #12
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

McGrain, is that Liston in your avatar? I've never seen that picture before. Got a bigger version? Thanks.
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Old 08-11-2007, 05:42 AM   #13
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
McGrain, is that Liston in your avatar? I've never seen that picture before. Got a bigger version? Thanks.
It's Sonny alright, what a great pic.
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Old 08-11-2007, 06:39 AM   #14
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bummy Davis
Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis had 2 bad qualities, both men never got off the floor to win, and Lewis never stopped a man after the 8th round(TKO'd Tyson in eight) Tyson stopped 1 fighter Jose Ribalta in the 10th (Ribalta was KO'd earlier before and after his fight with Mike) besides that fight Mike never Ko'd a fighter after the 7th. I would like to hear opinions as to what the reasons were and how this affects there legasy and ATG status
I think both arguments are absolute rubbish.

As Marciano says,
"Why dance with a man for ten rounds when you can knock him out in one?"

Lewis and Tyson could dispose of their opponents quickly - This is to their credit.

Prime Tyson was not a front-runner - He was consistently aggressive and damaging during his prime over the course of a fight as shown against Mitch Green, an easy decision victory.

Of course after he deteriorated under the tutelage of Aaron Snowell, he didn't have the legs to be effective for the duration of a fight - Heck, he refused to do any road work! During his prime years though, his conditioning was superb.

Lewis was knocked out decisively once - Many great fighters have been laid out in such a fashion. Joe Louis, Roy Jones etc etc. So what? He's only been knocked down twice in his career. Joe Louis was knocked down 11 times wasn't he? Obviously there's a greater chance to recover from ELEVEN knockdowns then there is from TWO.

The reason Tyson never went on to win a fight from being knocked down is because it took a MASSIVE amount of punishment to put him down in the first place - It's obviously easier to recover from being knocked down if you're knocked down EARLY.

It was almost impossible to knock Tyson down early.

Thus, this does not effect the legacy of either fighter - Not even in the SLIGHTEST. The high number of early stoppages actually works in favour of their legacy.
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Old 08-11-2007, 07:33 AM   #15
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Default Re: Mike Tyson and Lennox Lewis bad weakness

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
McGrain, is that Liston in your avatar? I've never seen that picture before. Got a bigger version? Thanks.

Nah, that's it Chris, sorry. Can't remember where I got it, but it is indeed a beaut.
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