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Old 08-11-2007, 05:38 AM   #31
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by McGrain
Pretty high I would say! Maybe just outside this type of company. What about you?

Quite surprised to see how few people are mentioning Tiger. I'm trying to think if he was even hurt at MW, never mind dropped - am i misremembering JT?
Tiger is a great shout, blood oath. I haven't watched that much of him, Manassa and co will know for sure, but i think the old jaw was iron at 160.
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Old 08-11-2007, 05:45 AM   #32
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
Marv, has definetly taken the mantle of most overrated fighter on this forum. apparently he never got beat by SRL too
He's up there, tho Pryor would top him i think. It's not as if he isn't great, i have him 1 or 2 achievement and top 5 head to head, top 2, 3 or 4 blended but jeez. I think his mean look and reputation get many, especially newer fans. Personally i found his tough guy image a bit too manufactured, and i lived the time.
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Old 08-11-2007, 05:48 AM   #33
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by Dave's Top Ten
Toney? How about Hagler who fought bigger punchers than Lights Out and was NEVER down (dismissing the slip againt Roldan)
I would rather take a full power punch from Tommy Hearns or John Mugabi than from Samuel Peter.
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Old 08-11-2007, 05:59 AM   #34
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
I would rather take a full power punch from Tommy Hearns or John Mugabi than from Samuel Peter.
Toney's chin has been proven to be a revelation really.
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Old 08-11-2007, 06:25 AM   #35
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
LaMotta was never knocked off his feet, and this was a man who didn't have good defense, this was a man who took them all on the chin, including 6 fights worth from one of the best punchers of all time. A lot of Toney's relies on his defense and how he rolls with punches, not neccessarily how good he can take them full, although he certainly has a good chin. He was badly hurt by Reggie Johnson though after the knockdown, something Hagler or Monzon have never been, and something LaMotta took even without going down.

I think his chin ranks behind theirs and Grebs among MW's.
Lamotta was knocked down ,but it was at the end of his career,and by a Light heavy weight,Danny Nardico ,I beleive.
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Old 08-11-2007, 06:29 AM   #36
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by hughweb
If any of the others took the punches Benn and Thompson hit him with, they'd be out cold multiple times

And what's wrong with being knocked down by THAT Calzaghe? He threw some of the hardest (or Loudest, atleast) left hands I've ever seen when he was coming up, before the hand break. Eubank didn't see the shot, was caught cold, and was up at the count of 2 (smilling!)!!
Lamotta took the punches of Robinson,and Bob Satterfield ,one of the hardest punching LH,s and Heavyweight ,s of all time,Hagler was never floored ,that Roldan thing was a slip,and Marvin took the punches ofHearns,Mugabi,Briscoe,and Hart.I rest my case!
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Old 08-11-2007, 07:20 AM   #37
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Are you kidding me? I think you just underrate the hell out of him. He is easily a top 3 MW of all time, you could make a case for #1, and he was a hard man, he wasn't manufactured. And he was an amazingly complete boxer/fighter in his prime.
No i am not kidding you. You think i underrate him, i think you OVERrate him. If you read what i wrote you would see i rate him 1 or 2 at 160, no? He was amazingly complete when not facing a top technician. Nobody bettered come forward straight ahead fighters much better i will give that for sure. A vastly durable man doesn't neccessarily = a hard man.
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Old 08-11-2007, 07:32 AM   #38
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Your resistence obviously gets higher as you get bigger.
I'm far from convinced on this one! Obviously? No, not sold at all. Ability to take a punch is just that and neck muscle can only do so much for mine.

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That's why people in lower weights get KO'd by people at their weight, but when they move up for the most part their power goes away, because they are facing bigger fighters with greater punch resistence.
Like Duran getting ko'ed at 135 but not by Hearn's? Like Spink's facing the biggest bombers at 175 then shrugging off Tyson's best? Arguello? Gomez? Zarate?

Quote:
As Toney moved up, his punch resistence did as well.
I don't recall Toney being stopped to be honest. Being wobbled once or twice doesn't cut it for me. Could have been punches he didn't pick up, the type many fear that are likely to be landed by the faster lighter fighters. You see Toney "see's" the slower punches at heavyweight much better therefore avoiding more and rolling with others

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How the hell do you explained him getting dropped and badly hurt by Reggie Johnson at MW?
Just did

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At MW his chin was not as good as the others mentioned, it was more how he rolled with punches than anything, and how his defense was and how he knew how to take a punch, than just his ability to take a full on shot, although he undoubtedly had a good chin period.
At the end of the day he took everything he needed to and was never stopped. His chinistic effort vs RJJ is something to take note off.
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Old 08-11-2007, 07:35 AM   #39
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Ok, so where does the part where he's overrated come into play?
People picking him over every Tom Dick and Harry when it was shown top technicians would be difficult for him. Also so many giving him automatic number 1 status when you have the likes of Monzon lurking around. People picking him to ravage anyone he comes into the ring against. Etc.
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Old 08-11-2007, 07:42 AM   #40
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
That was not a legit knockdown AT ALL, are you kidding me? And how the hell is he overrated at all?
He's rated as something of a Demi-God here, more because of his persona rather than his ability. My take on Hagler is that he was a good all rounder, not a great boxer (by any means), and not a great slugger, but he had sufficient ability to have a great mix of the too. As has been supplied in the past (by MDWC) he had his struggles against Finnegan (x2) and Colbert. he was beatable.

and to clarify he also had a great chin
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Old 08-11-2007, 07:44 AM   #41
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

IMO Hagler would get beat by the following middles;

Robinson (2 out of 3)
Monzonm (just)
Burley
RJJ (providing his chin holds up)
Hopkins (in a toss up)
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Old 08-11-2007, 08:05 AM   #42
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
What punchers did he face at LW compared even pound for pound to Hearns?
Looks like the supposed "higher resistence" didn't help him, that's for sure. He took Barkley bombs, but that would have been the extra 6 pounds of higher resistence right?

Quote:
Hearns landed clean shots all fight long on him, it would've been no different had he fought that way with a similar puncher at LW.
All fight = all 1 1/2 rounds. Personally i think he might have survived a similar assault at 135 P4P. I can't see the biggest lightweight punchers ever stopping him in 2 rounds, not at all actually even if they get some clean licks in. Hearn's was hurting or dropping him most everytime he hit him. Who you picking to absolutely poleaxe him out at 135 given similar offensive success?

Quote:
I recall him getting dropped and rocked badly by Reggie Johnson. And you prove my point just now when you talk about how he is able to roll with the punches because they are slower at HW. I made a point of his defense being key and the way he rolls with punches having at least as much to do with it as his chin, and you just proved that. His chin at MW wasn't as proven as the others. And the way he rolls with them is a big part of the reason he doesn't get hurt.
Toney took RJJ's leaping left hooks with aplomb mate. Picking out a random little happening like vs Johnson doesn't get bought by me. This tactic falls down on 1000 occasions, not the least being the Holyfield/Bert Cooper/Tyson chain. How on earth could Holy be all but taken out and hurt so bad by Bert Cooper yet walk thru so many Tyson bombs? How could Super Greg Page survive the big punchers he did yet fall to Mark Wills? The Johnson fight doesn't make Toney's chin suspect and Senya will debate you just how badly he was actually rocked

Quote:
Chinistic? Roy pot-shotted him all day and outclassed him, knocking him down in the process.
LMAO! You run around screaming about the Roldan KD of Hagler not being legit yet throw this one in our faces? "Are you kidding?" If this is pertinent to Toney's chin i'm Magaret Thatcher.
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Old 08-11-2007, 08:05 AM   #43
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
IMO Hagler would get beat by the following middles;

Robinson (2 out of 3)
Monzonm (just)
Burley
RJJ (providing his chin holds up)
Hopkins (in a toss up)
I take SRR at his best, RJJ, Monzon and Hopkins. Wouldn't like to back anyone else tho.
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Old 08-11-2007, 08:34 AM   #44
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

Hagler.

And the debate on this thread is surprising. Toney, Monzon, and especially Lamotta had great chins, but Hagler was in a class by himself. None of those guys took Hearns' right like Hagler did -Remember that Hagler was coming in when he caught a right uppercut -straight right flush. He was eating Mugabi's monster shots like nothing and several other bangers since Briscoe.
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Old 08-11-2007, 08:40 AM   #45
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Default Re: Middleweight with the hardest chin?

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
You kinda proved my point. He wasn't able to take Hearns shots because he was simply too hard a puncher landing CLEAN on a Duran not even close to his best. But he was able to take every others fighter he fought's shots.
You're getting a bit hazy. "Simply too hard" is a description used simply because he didn't survive? What about the extra 19 pounds of resistence? Duran was a lot further removed from his best when he faced Barkley.

Quote:
He was knocked out by Hearns not only because he was such a huge puncher, but Duran was complete shit in that fight.
Hearn's was just too good IMO. If Duran came in shit as you claim on such an immense occasion vs such a dangerous fighter he must have sensed impending doom regardless of what he did. Steward says Duran was intimidated by Hearn's when they crossed paths in the gym years earlier. Apparently Roberto gave ground mentally.

Quote:
Duran fought the way he did there, I think an Ike Williams would take him out similarly. But if Duran fought at his best that wouldn't be the case. Also, I think Hearns just had his number even if he did fight his best.
Now we're talking, number wise. Even not at his best i think Duran would survive any lightweight, could be wrong. His chin at 135 was awesome.

Quote:
Nobody said Toney's chin was suspect, just that it wasn't as good at MW as Hagler, Monzon, and LaMotta.
And that's what we are debating, i think it might have been on that level. I also think those guys would struggle immensely to take the shots of heavyweights and don't believe they would survive simply based on this better punch resistence moving up theory. Toney survived one of the biggest punchers on earth, i fear for Marvin, Monzon and Lamotta facing a Cooney, Coetzee etc.

Quote:
You missed the point. You said his fight with Jones showed how good his chin was when it looked to me on a few occasions that he was hurt and Roy was mostly pot-shotting him the whole night.
RJJ has one shot power, rest assured if he legitimately hurt Toney he would have been all over him like a fly to shit.

Quote:
You act like I'm saying he had a bad chin, I'm simply saying it wasn't as good at MW as the others I mentioned. Had a lot to do with how he rolled with punches than anything, which is a point I noticed you didn't respond to.
Well this is the whole debate, i reckon it was as good as the others and also think his heavyweight record adds to his credence where you don't. I'm not acting like you are saying his chin was bad, i'm acting as if you said it doesn't belong on this level, which you did. As far as rolling with punches, he still took plenty of top blows from the likes of Peter. Monzon and Hagler at their best weren't easy to time perfectly either, tho Toney is defensively better admittedly.
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