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Old 01-03-2009, 08:05 AM   #31
Ingar
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Default Re: Strength Training for boxing

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Originally Posted by RDJ View Post
What it suggests is that strength training only increases punching power if it causes hypertrophy. Neurological adaptations do not cross over. In other words unless you're gaining mass (and end up in a higher weightclass) it does not work.
That is a unfinished statement, the rest is thereby false. Given, they do not immediately cross over in the sense of doing heavy squats immediately increases your running speed by itself. But it does increase the rate of which your quadricep, gluteals and bicep femoris forcefully contract which will in turn increase your power output as you adapt it to your running because of improved work economy and motor unit activation.
Your article is full of holes, there are lots of studies that show increased power output from an increased 1RM in the squat or power clean (and they used a ****ing leg extension exercise).
Spesificity is important, but absolute strength is the basis of many things, and one thing more important than anything else is economy of motion.
Increased absolute strength even has a significant improvement upon aerobic performance.
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If it was the truth that strength training doesn't increase power output through neural adaptation, Olympic weightlifters wouldn't be able to jump as high as they do, or run as fast as they do.
It's all about motor unit activation, maximal strength training improves that of which motor units are activated and that "crosses over" in the form of work economy and thereby power output.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:38 AM   #32
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Default Re: Strength Training for boxing

RDJ you'd be surprised how these things work, its not all on paper (seeing as you haven't used these programmes before). Why don't you try it for yourself? Unless of course you don't want to which is fine, but it's not all with studies and neural adaptations and all that hogwash, if you get stronger and implement it to your boxing technique by just practising your punches you will have a stronger punch there's no 2 ways about it.
If you can snap your hips round faster and stronger, won't that equate to a harder punch? It will.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:42 AM   #33
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Default Re: Strength Training for boxing

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Originally Posted by Ingar View Post
That is a unfinished statement, the rest is thereby false. Given, they do not immediately cross over in the sense of doing heavy squats immediately increases your running speed by itself. But it does increase the rate of which your quadricep, gluteals and bicep femoris forcefully contract which will in turn increase your power output as you adapt it to your running because of improved work economy and motor unit activation.
Your article is full of holes, there are lots of studies that show increased power output from an increased 1RM in the squat or power clean (and they used a ****ing leg extension exercise).
Spesificity is important, but absolute strength is the basis of many things, and one thing more important than anything else is economy of motion.
Increased absolute strength even has a significant improvement upon aerobic performance.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

If it was the truth that strength training doesn't increase power output through neural adaptation, Olympic weightlifters wouldn't be able to jump as high as they do, or run as fast as they do.
It's all about motor unit activation, maximal strength training improves that of which motor units are activated and that "crosses over" in the form of work economy and thereby power output.
It wasn't my article mate. I'll reply in depth later, I have to go now.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:45 AM   #34
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Default Re: Strength Training for boxing

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RDJ you'd be surprised how these things work, its not all on paper (seeing as you haven't used these programmes before). Why don't you try it for yourself? Unless of course you don't want to which is fine, but it's not all with studies and neural adaptations and all that hogwash, if you get stronger and implement it to your boxing technique by just practising your punches you will have a stronger punch there's no 2 ways about it.
If you can snap your hips round faster and stronger, won't that equate to a harder punch? It will.
It's the if in your last sentence that matters. Gotta go, my brother is waiting for me.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:49 AM   #35
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There's no doubt if your technique sucks buttocks and/or wears figure skating outfits then extra strength won't help you.
Technique first, always.
But strength training of all sorts can be beneficial some more obviously than others.
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:53 AM   #36
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Default Re: Strength Training for boxing

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How did that happen?
it's simple - the leg strength i've acquired gives me more power in the push off
and stepping back and more power in the punch
pretty much in the same way a shot putter does with the leg extension, or a jumper or sprinter all of which do leg weight training
the most noticeable improvements with weight taining are shown in the legs which makes sense considering the bodyweight they have to move around
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:05 AM   #37
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What's the song in that medicine ball video?
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:38 AM   #38
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It wasn't my article mate. I'll reply in depth later, I have to go now.
I know it wasn't your article, mate.
It doesn't matter how you try to put it, "strength" training has it's place in everything wether you'd like to admit it or not.
That does not mean that weight lifting is the only way to go in terms of strength training either though, you can train your absolute, explosive, strating strength in many other ways with great results (look at gymnasts for example, many of them do not even do any type of weightlifting).
If you don't like weightlifting, fine.
I'm just telling you about how effective the method really is, behind every great power athlete is a solid weightlifting programme just for those reasons I stated earlier. Economy of motion with motor unit recruitment and hypertrophy alike.

Read up on some basics in terms of sport physiology from books written by the ISSA or other good sources for more info on the subject, don't just post up a link of some biased, unfinished article you stumble upon the internet. We've been over this tons of times before, and it's getting old.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:33 AM   #39
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Default Re: Strength Training for boxing

I do strength training for boxing through lifting weights, but I learnt from Ross Enamait how to do it properly:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Ross is the main man for strength training and probably for fitness training to for that matter and he has written some great articles and books on the subject.

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Regards BH
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:18 PM   #40
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Default Re: Strength Training for boxing

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Originally Posted by Ingar View Post
That is a unfinished statement, the rest is thereby false. Given, they do not immediately cross over in the sense of doing heavy squats immediately increases your running speed by itself. But it does increase the rate of which your quadricep, gluteals and bicep femoris forcefully contract which will in turn increase your power output as you adapt it to your running because of improved work economy and motor unit activation.
Your article is full of holes, there are lots of studies that show increased power output from an increased 1RM in the squat or power clean (and they used a ****ing leg extension exercise).
Spesificity is important, but absolute strength is the basis of many things, and one thing more important than anything else is economy of motion.
Increased absolute strength even has a significant improvement upon aerobic performance.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

If it was the truth that strength training doesn't increase power output through neural adaptation, Olympic weightlifters wouldn't be able to jump as high as they do, or run as fast as they do.
It's all about motor unit activation, maximal strength training improves that of which motor units are activated and that "crosses over" in the form of work economy and thereby power output.


Assuming what you have said is correct, how many people in boxing gyms have actually studied this material? How many boxers exercise the absolute disciple in training and in lifestyle that modern Olympians are famous for? Arturo Gatti admitted on TSN that he had been lifting weights which caused him to gain an extra 20 pounds, which he would have to dehydrate to make weight. As a matter of fact he got involved in a lawsuit because of this. A boxer with all his money should be able to hire the right people to get him in shape. The fact is virtually every boxer in the world today weight trains improperly by your standards.
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Old 01-03-2009, 12:47 PM   #41
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The article does not say strength training doesn't have a purpose. What it suggests is that strength not gained by hypertrophy is mostly specific to the movement, in other words that you should do it in a sports specific way unless hypertrophy is involved. Bag work for example, and I have found out that it works very well. Sure there will be some cross over gains, but why settle for cross over gains when you can have the real deal. Conclusion RDJ is a big proponent of strength training.

You can rehearse your motor unit story as many times as you like, and be as patronizing as you want as well, because it's not even contradicting with what I'm saying. Sure it's about "recruitment of motor units". And I think that your body will adapt to recruiting as much as possible by actually doing the movement that requires much of them in the first place. Specificity. I'm sure you know the principle, it's described in the same sports physiology books you want me to read.
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Old 01-03-2009, 01:22 PM   #42
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Default Re: Strength Training for boxing

pacquioa obviously did strength training to fight de la hoya and gained a few pounds doing it
and his hands were faster than ever - more so than when he was a featherweight
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Old 01-03-2009, 03:13 PM   #43
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When lifting weights there are 2 types of hypertrophy:

Types of hypertrophy

There are two different types of muscular hypertrophy: sarcoplasmic hypertrophy and myofibrillar hypertrophy. During sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, the volume of sarcoplasmic fluid in the muscle cell increases with no accompanying increase in muscular strength. During myofibrillar hypertrophy, the myofibrils, comprised of the actin and myosin contractile proteins, increase in number and add to muscular strength as well as a small increase in the size of the muscle.

Strength training

Main article: Strength training
Strength training typically produces a combination of the two different types of hypertrophy: contraction against 80 to 90% of the one repetition maximum for two to eight repetitions (reps) causes myofibrillated hypertrophy to dominate (as in powerlifters, olympic lifters and strength athletes), while several repetitions (generally 12 or more) against a sub-maximal load facilitates mainly sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (professional bodybuilders and endurance athletes). The first measurable effect is an increase in the neural drive stimulating muscle contraction. Within just a few days, an untrained individual can achieve measurable strength gains resulting from "learning" to use the muscle. As the muscle continues to receive increased demands, the synthetic machinery is upregulated. Although all the steps are not yet clear, this upregulation appears to begin with the ubiquitous second messenger system (including phospholipases, protein kinase C, tyrosine kinase, and others). These, in turn, activate the family of immediate-early genes, including c-fos, c-jun and myc. These genes appear to dictate the contractile protein gene response.
Muscle hypertrophy due to strength training does not occur for everyone and is not necessarily well correlated with gains in actual muscle strength: it is possible for muscles to grow larger without becoming much stronger.

When lifting weights, you need to train for myofibrillated hypertrophy using low sets, low reps and maximum weight:

Bench Press 4 sets, 5 reps max weight
Squat 4 sets, 5 reps max weight

Use core exercises and include dumbells where possible

I would not lift more than twice a week but it will help with strength and you won't put on muscle mass if you do it properly.

Just out of interest Ross received a signed flag from the US Marine core for his work on fitness and strength training.

Regards BH
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Old 01-03-2009, 04:31 PM   #44
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Default Re: Strength Training for boxing

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Originally Posted by ralphc View Post
Arturo Gatti admitted on TSN that he had been lifting weights which caused him to gain an extra 20 pounds, which he would have to dehydrate to make weight. As a matter of fact he got involved in a lawsuit because of this. A boxer with all his money should be able to hire the right people to get him in shape. The fact is virtually every boxer in the world today weight trains improperly by your standards.
Lifting weights does not cause you to magically gain 20lbs...
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:07 PM   #45
Ingar
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Default Re: Strength Training for boxing

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The article does not say strength training doesn't have a purpose. What it suggests is that strength not gained by hypertrophy is mostly specific to the movement, in other words that you should do it in a sports specific way unless hypertrophy is involved. Bag work for example, and I have found out that it works very well. Sure there will be some cross over gains, but why settle for cross over gains when you can have the real deal. Conclusion RDJ is a big proponent of strength training.
Nobody has said for anybody to put weight training in front of any other, it is merely a tool and nothing else. Just like everything else one does. Like I said, don't use the tool if you don't like it, keep doing your thing if it gives you the progress and results you want.
I never substitute sparring for weight training if I want to become a better boxer, nobody is saying that.
When it comes to punching power, weight training will be a useful tool if you do it correctly.

Quote:
You can rehearse your motor unit story as many times as you like, and be as patronizing as you want as well, because it's not even contradicting with what I'm saying. Sure it's about "recruitment of motor units". And I think that your body will adapt to recruiting as much as possible by actually doing the movement that requires much of them in the first place. Specificity. I'm sure you know the principle, it's described in the same sports physiology books you want me to read.
What is contradicting to what you (and the article) are saying is that strength training in the sense of it's neural adaptations does not offer any carryover to different type of muscle contraction in the same type of muscle groups involved.
Myofibrilar hypertrophy is one thing, that has a carrover effect and you agree with that. The other thing is neural adaptation. Your ability to recruit more muscle fibres in a certain muscle group during a maximal contraction absolutely has a carryover effect, since stronger muscle contractions in a single muscle group does not differ from what exercise you are doing since the muscle itself cannot tell what movement you are doing.
The article you posted had a single joint movement (leg extension exercise, knee joint) and compared it with a multijoint movement (cycling, hip, knee and ankle joint). Of course you are gonna have subpar carrover results.
That's why you train only multi-joint movements when you look for increased power output for sports, such as squats, power cleans and snatches.
By training the muscle groups involved in your sport, you are being sport-spesific. Technique training is paramount in any sport, and you won't become a great sprinter by just squatting, but it will be a hell of an addition done right.

Sorry if I came of as patronizing, I didn't mean to. I'm just reacting to you being so openly negative about something that has and will always help alot of athletes. I know, this is what I do for a living, this is shit I apply, teach and read about every single day.
I know this works, I am a product of it. And so are many other people I've trained with, coached, watched, played against etc.

Last edited by Ingar; 01-03-2009 at 11:38 PM.
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