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Old 01-19-2011, 10:38 AM   #466
Kalasinn
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post

Read again; i'm not attacking his heart on any level.
To me you are, personally i think "Heart" & "Courage" are very similar concepts.

Lets look at the definition for "Courage":

"a quality of spirit that enables you to face danger or pain without showing fear"
(Sounds awfully like "Heart" to me.)

Now lets have a gander at the definition for "Discouraged":

"discourage - deprive of courage or hope; take away hope from; cause to feel discouraged"

Hence i feel that being "discouraged" is quite the opposite to showing "Heart".
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:40 AM   #467
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Would Frazier have fallen apart? Would Armstrong? Of course not. This is what I mean when I say that Tyson doesn't chart that highly on this scale. Frazier new he wasn't what he was going into Manilla, but when he hit his concrete he kept ****ing digging. As you've pointed out, Tyson crumbled.



Agree, to a degree. I probably don't believe this as firmly as you do, but I understand completely what you are getting at. That "resignation" is what I am talking about, specifically.
The fact that Frazier had a good support system in his corner and was coming into the fight with real boxing people makes a big difference in my opinion. Tyson was going into these fights with buddies from his youth and messing around during training camp.
Thats why we saw a more determined fighter in the Ruddock fights when he was faced with adversity, because he was being prepared by a real boxing trainer. Training camp is not just a day in day out physical grind to prepare for a fight, its a mental journey as well.
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:47 AM   #468
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
The fact that Frazier had a good support system in his corner and was coming into the fight with real boxing people makes a big difference in my opinion.
I agree with you. But who is in your corner doesn't actually change the possibilities that lie inside of you. It's possible that Tyson can't reach his mental maximum, for want of a better phrase (And that is a clunky phrase,not to be taken to seriously) due to his corner, but his mental make-up is still there...Tyson's mental limitations betray his physical possibilities.
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:48 AM   #469
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by Kalasinn View Post
To me you are, personally i think "Heart" & "Courage" are very similar concepts.

Lets look at the definition for "Courage":

"a quality of spirit that enables you to face danger or pain without showing fear"
(Sounds awfully like "Heart" to me.)

Now lets have a gander at the definition for "Discouraged":

"discourage - deprive of courage or hope; take away hope from; cause to feel discouraged"

Hence i feel that being "discouraged" is quite the opposite to showing "Heart".
I'm attacking Tyson's mental discipline.
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:48 AM   #470
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
The fact that Frazier had a good support system in his corner and was coming into the fight with real boxing people makes a big difference in my opinion. Tyson was going into these fights with buddies from his youth and messing around during training camp.
Thats why we saw a more determined fighter in the Ruddock fights when he was faced with adversity, because he was being prepared by a real boxing trainer. Training camp is not just a day in day out physical grind to prepare for a fight, its a mental journey as well.
Good post, & like Cus said:

"Boxing is 80% mental."
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Old 01-19-2011, 10:51 AM   #471
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I'm attacking Tyson's mental discipline.
His mental discipline was of Spartan cloth, when supremely conditioned mentally & physically under Rooney & under Giachetti* too.


*Pre-Prison, since i already explained how unjust jailtime mentally ruined him.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:00 AM   #472
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by Kalasinn View Post
His mental discipline was of Spartan cloth, when supremely conditioned mentally & physically under Rooney & under Giachetti* too.
Nonsense. He became deeply frustrated against Smith and abandoned his boxing. Against both Ferguson and Jameson he shows similar frustrations that cause him to abandon what he is best at. Some of this can be written off, if you chose to do so, by pointing his youth, but you can't have it both ways.

Tyson showed indiscipline every time he was frustrated. Contrast this with a genuinely spartan mental discipline, such as Louis's or Dempsey's.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:07 AM   #473
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I agree with you. But who is in your corner doesn't actually change the possibilities that lie inside of you. It's possible that Tyson can't reach his mental maximum, for want of a better phrase (And that is a clunky phrase,not to be taken to seriously) due to his corner, but his mental make-up is still there...Tyson's mental limitations betray his physical possibilities.
I believe it does. Look what Charles Manson did to those pretty innocent women.
I think a strong force in your corner can bring a fighter to levels he never thought he could achieve. Tyson was brainwashed into thinking he was untouchable if he did things a certain way.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:13 AM   #474
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Yes, you are mistaken.

I don't think of it as a set "number" but rather working along within certain boundaries.

Just like strength, it has its limitations.

This is the reason Ali-Frazier III or Ross's determination versus Armstrong so amazes us - because not everyone can do it, not because everybody can. It is rare because the extreme boundaries of mental strength are rare.
I disagree.

A man's physical strength is limited in a way that his mental strength (determination) isn't.

But I agree that fighters need to be judged by what they demonstrated in the ring. Tyson showed weaknesses in his prime, was prone to a little frustration and confusion, and impatience, in his prime.
You're right when you say he never showed the ability to turn the tide in a really rough fight, and in fact I'd say he became a lesser fighter as rounds progressed even in fights he was winning.
I mean this in the context of taking a hyper-critical view of him as a fighter.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:17 AM   #475
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Nonsense. He became deeply frustrated against Smith and abandoned his boxing. Against both Ferguson and Jameson he shows similar frustrations that cause him to abandon what he is best at. Some of this can be written off, if you chose to do so, by pointing his youth, but you can't have it both ways.

Tyson showed indiscipline every time he was frustrated. Contrast this with a genuinely spartan mental discipline, such as Louis's or Dempsey's.
Tyson won all those fights and showed the character to get through them without fouling out or giving up. I think Tyson would have probably lost some of those fights post Rooney.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:18 AM   #476
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Nonsense. He became deeply frustrated against Smith and abandoned his boxing. Against both Ferguson and Jameson he shows similar frustrations that cause him to abandon what he is best at. Some of this can be written off, if you chose to do so, by pointing his youth, but you can't have it both ways.

Tyson showed indiscipline every time he was frustrated. Contrast this with a genuinely spartan mental discipline, such as Louis's or Dempsey's.
So "frustrated" against Bonecrusher, that he clearly won the first 11 rounds, with Smith only taking the 12th with one titanic flush bomb?
Bonecrusher was constantly clinching like a bitch between the viscious explosions of aggression in his face by Tyson & should have had points deducted, but the referee was incomptetent. Problem for Smith was, he is slow as molasses, so he felt helpless & unable to get off punches, against the lightning explosive speed of Mike.

Teenage Tyson was very green with few rounds under his belt, had no proper experience & only 19 years old in the other two fights you listed, yet I saw no "frustation" against Jameson, & the Ferguson fight was a decent performance for the teen too, between the ridiculous amount of Hugging by Jesse who was desperate to just survive.

Could one not argue Lennox was perhaps frustrated against Mavrovic or Bruno?
How about Dempsey against Sharkey & Meehan?
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:30 AM   #477
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I disagree.

A man's physical strength is limited in a way that his mental strength (determination) isn't.

But I agree that fighters need to be judged by what they demonstrated in the ring. Tyson showed weaknesses in his prime, was prone to a little frustration and confusion, and impatience, in his prime.
You're right when you say he never showed the ability to turn the tide in a really rough fight, and in fact I'd say he became a lesser fighter as rounds progressed even in fights he was winning.
I mean this in the context of taking a hyper-critical view of him as a fighter.
I dont think any fighter of Tyson's style could sustain that activity through the course of a long fight. Tyson brought a lot of pressure early but the pressure took a lot out of his opponent as well so it made both guys resort to a slower pace.

Tyson was a brawler, his plan B was to resort to a slower paced clinch filled fight, but I dont think Tyson fufilled his full potential or progressed much further past the Tubbs fight in ability. We never saw that version of Tyson against an elite opponent to see how they would react to that early pressure. Elite fighters usually fight back, so a guy like Lewis or Holyfield could have very well gone the way of Mike Spinks, who knows?

I dont think a fighters fortitude should be defined on his ability to turn a losing fight. I think Tyson was involved in tough fights throughout his career, I just think he had better answers at certain points but those answers for the most part were defensive or settling into going the distance, not giving up and getting impailed on the outside.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:35 AM   #478
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by Kalasinn View Post
So "frustrated" against Bonecrusher, that he clearly won the first 11 rounds, with Smith only taking the 12th with one titanic flush bomb?
This is the standard defence against those who claim Tyson was somehow bad against Bonecrusher. I don't say he was bad. I say his mental discipline was less than spartan, as you've claimed. I say that Louis, Dempsey, genuine spartan mentallities wouldn't show the seeds of mental indiscipline that would later get Tyson disqualified versus Holyfield in this fight. They would have done what they had to do.


Quote:
Bonecrusher was constantly clinching like a bitch between the viscious explosions of aggression in his face by Tyson & should have had points deducted, but the referee was incomptetent. Problem for Smith was, he is slow as molasses, so he felt helpless & unable to get off punches, against the lightning explosive speed of Mike.
All true.

None of it relevant.

Quote:
Teenage Tyson was very green with few rounds under his belt, had no proper experience & only 19 years old in the other two fights you listed, yet I saw no "frustation" against Jameson, & the Ferguson fight was a decent performance for the teen too, between the ridiculous amount of Hugging by Jesse who was desperate to just survive.
He showed great frustration. He allows Ferguson to draw him all the way inside and just does nothing for spells. By the end of round three he's throwing nothing arm punches. He's been thrown off his game because he's not being allowed to box at mid-range, and at one point appears to be getting booed by the crowd. In round four he's showing the mental weakness that would most affect him later in his career, throwing single bombs to try to get his man out of there and then getting tied up in a clinch.

At the beginning of five he does no punching. He puts his head on Ferguson's shoulder, accepting the new clinch. He's adopting the same attitude we would see a few years later against Buster, a dis-interest in turning the tide of a fight (in terms of type of fight, not scoring here) he is physically capable of altering.

My memory of the commentary: "Tyson is making mistakes, he needs to maintain distance". He was physically capable of doing this, and it was his strategy going in, but he was bullied out of it by a vastly inferior fighter.

He is physically capable of better but his mental limitations prevent him executing. That's not the spartan mental discipline you have claimed for him. Sure he was green, but you're rapidly narrowing down Mike's peak to about 3 fights!


Quote:
Could one not argue Lennox was perhaps frustrated against Mavrovic or Bruno?
How about Dempsey against Sharkey & Meehan?
If you like, but both showed more mental discipline to me than Mike Tyson, regardless.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:35 AM   #479
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by lefthook31 View Post
I dont think any fighter of Tyson's style could sustain that activity through the course of a long fight. Tyson brought a lot of pressure early but the pressure took a lot out of his opponent as well so it made both guys resort to a slower pace.

Tyson was a brawler, his plan B was to resort to a slower paced clinch filled fight, but I dont think Tyson fufilled his full potential or progressed much further past the Tubbs fight in ability. We never saw that version of Tyson against an elite opponent to see how they would react to that early pressure. Elite fighters usually fight back, so a guy like Lewis or Holyfield could have very well gone the way of Mike Spinks, who knows?

I dont think a fighters fortitude should be defined on his ability to turn a losing fight. I think Tyson was involved in tough fights throughout his career, I just think he had better answers at certain points but those answers for the most part were defensive or settling into going the distance, not giving up and getting impailed on the outside.
I actually think Peak Tyson had a great "plan B" against Peak Tucker:

After difficulty in the initial 3 rounds, while using his typical skillful brawling, Mike decided to instead elusively zip in & out with his fast feet & shotgun jab for the remaining 9 rounds, i was impressed at that adaptation to adversity.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:36 AM   #480
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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I disagree.

A man's physical strength is limited in a way that his mental strength (determination) isn't.
Well we've already agreed it's finite, so if we disagree on degrees, I can live with that. It's a finite thing.

Quote:
But I agree that fighters need to be judged by what they demonstrated in the ring.
Naturally, this is how me know Armstrong was mentally stronger than Tyson, for example, and in the context of making picks in boxing.


It worked for me recently - I picked Froch to KO Taylor in the 11th due to Taylor's mental wilting despite his having out-boxed Froch. As a prediciton it was basically absolutely spot on outside of the round, and it was possible because I made a detailed appraisal of each fighter, including their apparent mental strength - which I rightly anticipated would be the key factor.

In the same post I picked Hatton to beat Pacquiao though!
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