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Old 01-19-2011, 11:43 AM   #481
Kalasinn
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Sure he was green, but you're rapidly narrowing down Mike's peak to about 3 fights!.
Bullshit.
Lets have a look at some of my definitions of fighters Peaks:


Mike Tyson
: '86 Berbick to '88 Spinks (8 fights)

Evander Holyfield
: '90 Buster to '93 Bowe II (7 fights)

Joe Frazier: '68 Mathis to '71 Ali (8 fights)

Lennox Lewis: '97 McCall II to '00 Tua (10 fights)

Muhammad Ali: '65 Patterson to '67 Folley (8 fights)

George Foreman: '73 Frazier to '74 Ali (4 fights)


Where is the problem?
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:46 AM   #482
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by Kalasinn View Post
I actually think Peak Tyson had a great "plan B" against Peak Tucker:

After difficulty in the initial 3 rounds, while using his typical skillful brawling, Mike decided to instead elusively zip in & out with his fast feet & shotgun jab for the remaining 9 rounds, i was impressed at that adaptation to adversity.
It was becoming clear that Tyson had to find an answer to clinchers. I think the body head combo was becoming more prominent in Tyson's arsenal because of it. I used the Tubbs fight as an example, because Tyson fought well both inside and out. As I said, I dont think we saw the best of Tyson and I think he could have done more on the inside against both Tucker and Smith.
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Old 01-19-2011, 11:53 AM   #483
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by Kalasinn View Post
Bullshit.
Lets have a look at some of my definitions of fighters Peaks:


Mike Tyson
: '86 Berbick to '88 Spinks (8 fights)

Evander Holyfield
: '90 Buster to '93 Bowe II (7 fights)

Joe Frazier: '68 Mathis to '71 Ali (8 fights)

Lennox Lewis: '97 McCall II to '00 Tua (10 fights)

Muhammad Ali: '65 Patterson to '67 Folley (8 fights)

George Foreman: '73 Frazier to '74 Ali (4 fights)


Where is the problem?


From that massive post on Tyson's limitations, this is the point you want to press?!

I think some of these dates are highly debatable, and I don't think it's particularly relevant to the problem at hand anyway. But i'll withdraw, Mike's peak according to you is longer than three fights.
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Old 01-19-2011, 01:28 PM   #484
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
People make so much of the Ruddock fight. Like somehow, because Tyson didn't get discouraged by Ruddock when he was younger it is impossible for that incarnation of Tyson to be discouraged by anyone.

The fact that Tyson totally outclassed Ruddock, knew it, enjoyed evidence of it in the ring doesn't seem to register. There's a huge difference between crumbling in the face of a fighter you outclass (as close to rank cowardice as you will get in the ring) and becoming the "game quitter" (Teddy Atlas) when being punched by a fighter that is firmly in your class.
So I suppose that every fighter that gets outclassed by another fighter who is in the same class is a game quitter.

Patterson is such a quitter because he got beaten up by Liston twice and did nothing to get back into the fight.

Felix Trinidad was a game quitter against Bernard Hopkins because he couldn't turn the tide.

Joe Frazier is such a game quitter because he kept going down so he wouldn't keep getting hit by Foreman.

( just in case some posters don't understand I'm using sarcasm to illustrate a point.)

People make much of the Ruddock fight because:

1. Ruddock has 1 punch KO power which is enough to put any fighter away including Mike Tyson if he lands enough; after all he hit harder than both Holyfield and Douglas not to mention he landed plenty.

2. Ruddock was still there. Tyson landed some monster punches in both fights and Ruddock showed that he was determined and wasn't going away. This debunks the myth that Tyson can have early success in a fight and somehow lose it as the rounds wore on simply because he's met with an opponent who won't back down.

Every fighter gets discouraged at some point but great fighters like Tyson show that when he was still a force, even if he gets discouraged (bar Holyfield 2) he'll continue to fight on.

Against Douglas: Round 8 is evidence of it. He was looking for a way to turn things around. Right before the end of the round he lands an uppercut but it grazed Douglas; Buster sort of fell into Tyson against the ropes.

At 2:40 you can see that he's looking for it, at 2:43 he lands the first right uppercut but it wasn't as flush as he needed it to be. He has the look of someone who finally found his cheat sheet to his final exam and is racing against the clock. There was almost a look of relief on his face during this sequence almost as though he finally exploited an opening in Buster's offense. At 2:50 he lands it and down goes Buster.

The next round he comes out. Aggressive but spent. Tyson may have performed well in other fights but I can't think of other fights where he fought with more desire than he did in this round. He was on shaky legs limited vision and facing a guy who that night fought like the better fighter. At 5:37 he looked for it again (right uppercut) it wasn't there and he was punished for looking. There was no quit in him; he desperately wanted to keep his belts and his undefeated record. Even when he was knocked down, he reached for his mouthpiece and tried to get up and fight as opposed to just laying there like a game quitter.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KNuAVivQkU&playnext=1&list=PLC1209FC20870BBD9&index=44[/ame]

2. Holyfield I

Watch round 10, it starts at 1:59. The first 2:30 of the round is all Tyson before Holyfield catches him coming in. He didn't have the conditioning necessary to pull the turn. But when you watch it, you can see that he was still fighting as hard as his conditioning and ability would allow him to. I don't think anyone can say that after watching this round that the sentiment of the fight was Tyson was a game loser. He certainly didn't fight like it.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sEM94qAEX4&NR=1[/ame]

3. Botha. No need to post anything.


The point is with Tyson his losses are not treated as his opponents wins' rather they are treated like Tyson's loss. In his losses he's a "game loser" and in his win's his opponent was scared.

You're asking Frazier would have fallen apart or Armstrong?

Well if Frazier was the same position as Tyson was in to the extent that both Holyfield and Douglas enjoyed similar success against him in their respective fights I don't see how he would have done anything different if he was in the position that he is well behind on cards in a fight where he's taking a beating. Franky I don't think Frazier could have withstood the punishment Buster dished out. (I think Frazier beats Douglas, but if Douglas was landing flush on Frazier the same way he was against Tyson I don't see Frazier taking that kind of punishment for 10 rounds if he came in under the same conditions that Mike was in).


In boxing or sports Heart is overcoming your shortcomings to the best of your ability. It doesn't mean getting off the floor to win a fight or turning the tide late in a fight ala Joe Louis vs Conn.
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Old 01-19-2011, 02:01 PM   #485
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by ironchamp View Post
So I suppose that every fighter that gets outclassed by another fighter who is in the same class is a game quitter.
No. Why on earth would you say that?

Quote:
Patterson is such a quitter because he got beaten up by Liston twice and did nothing to get back into the fight.

Felix Trinidad was a game quitter against Bernard Hopkins because he couldn't turn the tide.

Joe Frazier is such a game quitter because he kept going down so he wouldn't keep getting hit by Foreman.

( just in case some posters don't understand I'm using sarcasm to illustrate a point.)
but it entirely misses the point! Trinidad did not have the fundamental tools to make changes against Hopkins, nor did Patterson against Liston. In the examples i've provided, against Ferguson, Douglas, Smith, Tyson has the fundamental abilities to make change X, whatever that may be, but has lost his mental discipline, and is showing the cracks that would manifest themselves most completely against Holyfield in II.


As for the rest of your post, I haven't said Tyson was an utterly incapable spastic. Of course we can see him firing back punches during fights where he was hit, what do you think??
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:07 PM   #486
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
but it entirely misses the point! Trinidad did not have the fundamental tools to make changes against Hopkins, nor did Patterson against Liston. In the examples i've provided, against Ferguson, Douglas, Smith, Tyson has the fundamental abilities to make change X, whatever that may be, but has lost his mental discipline, and is showing the cracks that would manifest themselves most completely against Holyfield in II.
What about Frazier against Ali?
Holyfield against Bowe?

Both fighters demonstrated the ability to beat their opponent in their trilogies but failed 2 out 3 times. The point I'm making is that Tyson's shortcomings is not mental but is due largely to his professionalism and dedication to the sport not to mention his adversaries ability to carry out a coherent game plan that he was unable to adjust to. Notice most Tyson fights where he loses, he usually faces problems early in the fight. Lack of advice and perhaps ring IQ has prevented him from mounting a successful triumph in most cases even though he continues to fight hard.

Lewis was KO'd twice against inferior opponents who he dominated in the rematch on both occasions. People chalk it up to a lack of professionalism on Lewis's part. Tyson has a better chin, so something like that isn't going to happen to him so in all probability showing up unprepared against an opponent who is on top of their game can lead to situations where he either KO's his opponent as result of his own power (Bruno & Williams) or is beaten up over the course of a long fight.

Holyfield I & Douglas proves that Tyson has the mental fortitude to keep trying when things don't go his way but in both situations his out of the ring activities and his inept corner contributed to his inability to change strategy.

Botha showed what happens when you have a solid corner. Granted Tyson's power bailed him out but it was Brooks that steered him back so that he can be in a position to land that.

Quote:
As for the rest of your post, I haven't said Tyson was an utterly incapable spastic. Of course we can see him firing back punches during fights where he was hit, what do you think??
I wasn't just addressing you just the resident Tyson haters.

Last edited by ironchamp; 01-19-2011 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 03:36 PM   #487
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ironchamp View Post
What about Frazier against Ali?
What mental frailty do you think he showed in Manilla?

Quote:
Holyfield against Bowe?
This skirts rather nicely around the issue, but what exactly is your point? That all fighters who have ever lost have shown these cracks? That all fighters who have won 1/3 have shown them? Or that Tyson cannot possibly have shown them because other fighters have lost?

What is the relevance, please?

Quote:
The point I'm making is that Tyson's shortcomings is not mental but is due largely to his professionalism and dedication to the sport not to mention his adversaries ability to carry out a coherent game plan that he was unable to adjust to.
And the point i'm making is the complete opposite of this point. His problem, or one of them, IS a mental one.

Quote:
Notice most Tyson fights where he loses, he usually faces problems early in the fight. Lack of advice and perhaps ring IQ has prevented him from mounting a successful triumph in most cases even though he continues to fight hard.
What? Why do you need to have ring IQ to know that trying to bomb out opponents with single shots, or employing a plan of this ilk isn't wisdom? Do you seriously believe that if you sat Tyson down he would say, "yeah, that's a great plan, that was the right plan"? Of course, of course he wouldn't. It's not a matter of advice or IQ, it's a matter of him becoming emotionally involved and drawn.

This series of posts began because another poster claimed that Tyson represented the Spartan peak of mental discipline in boxing. That is not the case.


Quote:
Holyfield I & Douglas proves that Tyson has the mental fortitude to keep trying when things don't go his way but in both situations his out of the ring activities and his inept corner contributed to his inability to change strategy.
Yeah, he can take his beatings. But how many times does this point need to be made by Tyson fans in this thread? It is not in dispute, and as far as I can tell, never has been!

lefthook and Unforgiven are bother arguing here for a Tyson victory over Lewis. lefthook has said Tyson "fell apart" against Douglas, mentally, because he knew he wasn't ready for this type of fight, couldn't do it. This is specifically referring to in this fight. That is not a thing that would happen to an under-prepared Lewis (against Klitschko, for example, a far harder prospect - far harder - than being in with Douglas) or Louis - they would both remain proffessional and in pursuit of pre-fight strategy whatever the issues. You know that.

Unforgiven refers to Tysons issues with frustrations.

This is the kind of thing I am talking about, precisely. There seems to be evidence for and little evidence againt. So please, please stop re-affirming how good Tyson is at getting beaten up and trying, because even if it's true (and it's debatable) it is far from the end of the affair.

There is a slender hairline fracture leading from the beginnings of Tyson's career to the earbite and beyond.



Quote:
I wasn't just addressing you just the resident Tyson haters.
Tyson's a divisive figure, for sure. But that door swings both ways.

Still, talking to Tysonites isn't as bad as trying to have a reasonable conversation with a Foreman fan.

And as a general argument, that part of your post would have been an OK read if I hadn't thought you were talking directly to me.
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:03 PM   #488
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I don't think people's characters are set like that. A man is defined by his actions. One day he might show grit and resolve, or even heroic courage. The next day he might shirk or quit.
This right here. I can relate because I'm an athlete, as are many people on here, and have gone through many tests of character in my sport. I have triumphed and failed along the way. I'll have to catch up with the rest of the posts to see where this is headed.

Last edited by Sangria; 01-21-2011 at 02:43 AM.
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Old 01-19-2011, 05:35 PM   #489
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
What mental frailty do you think he showed in Manilla?
None whatsoever. The point I'm making I just don't think Tyson showed mental frailty in his losses to Holyfield I, Douglas and Lewis.

Tyson against Douglas and Holyfield I showed up and was complacent and over confident and he found himself in an unexpected fight but he fought to win despite coming up short and went out on his shield like an honorable champion.

Quote:
This skirts rather nicely around the issue, but what exactly is your point? That all fighters who have ever lost have shown these cracks? That all fighters who have won 1/3 have shown them? Or that Tyson cannot possibly have shown them because other fighters have lost?

What is the relevance, please?
The relevance is that Both Frazier and Holyfield beat their adversaries making it plausible for them to repeat the task. Their inability to do so is not a reflection of their mental shortcomings. You seem (at least that's my impression) to be convinced and rightfully so i suppose that Tyson was fully capable of beating Douglas and Holyfield even in the condition he came in but was able unable to do so because of his mental shortcomings.

I'm saying that it's not his shortcomings rather his professionalism and conditioning played a large role in those fights.

Quote:
And the point i'm making is the complete opposite of this point. His problem, or one of them, IS a mental one.
I think mentally the only fight you can hold him against is Holyfield II where he snapped because things weren't going his way.

Quote:
What? Why do you need to have ring IQ to know that trying to bomb out opponents with single shots, or employing a plan of this ilk isn't wisdom? Do you seriously believe that if you sat Tyson down he would say, "yeah, that's a great plan, that was the right plan"? Of course, of course he wouldn't. It's not a matter of advice or IQ, it's a matter of him becoming emotionally involved and drawn.
Fighters can't fight with Monkeys in their corner. A great fighter sometimes needs a great trainer (or one that can bring out the best in you). Rooney kept him on the rails against Tillis and Ferguson whereas Snowell and Bright may have failed him. Brooks him kept his head cool against Botha despite the obvious frustration that Tyson exhibited. Trainers can call audibles mid-fight. It may sound like common sense that trying to bomb out opponents with single shots isn't wisdom but in the ring it's always easier said than done and especially if you can punch like Mike Tyson can. Tyson probably knows more about boxing than just about any poster on this forum surely giving advice is not as easy as implementing it.

Quote:
This series of posts began because another poster claimed that Tyson represented the Spartan peak of mental discipline in boxing. That is not the case.
Tyson's desire to win was eclipsed by his lack of discipline which increased over time. Over the course of time one's dedication and devotion can change if conditions allow it to. Look at marriage, divorce is not rare occurrence and when a couple can divorce even after 30 years of marriage it is because certain conditions led to it. So initially Tyson had the mental make up of a warrior. His first meeting Bobby Stewart showed a young 13 year old kid getting beat up in the ring but fighting furiously to show his worth.

Besides, frustration is not a concept only relevant to Mike Tyson everybody endures it at some point.


Quote:
Yeah, he can take his beatings. But how many times does this point need to be made by Tyson fans in this thread? It is not in dispute, and as far as I can tell, never has been!
I guess it's a non issue.

l
Quote:
lefthook and Unforgiven are bother arguing here for a Tyson victory over Lewis. lefthook has said Tyson "fell apart" against Douglas, mentally, because he knew he wasn't ready for this type of fight, couldn't do it.
I'm arguing for a Tyson victory as well but on the merits of styles and skill not will. And I disagree he fell apart against Douglas.

Quote:
This is specifically referring to in this fight. That is not a thing that would happen to an under-prepared Lewis (against Klitschko, for example, a far harder prospect - far harder - than being in with Douglas) or Louis - they would both remain proffessional and in pursuit of pre-fight strategy whatever the issues. You know that.
I agree that Tyson would never walk into a Lewis fight if this was prime for prime out of shape and under prepared.


Quote:
Tyson's a divisive figure, for sure. But that door swings both ways.

Still, talking to Tysonites isn't as bad as trying to have a reasonable conversation with a Foreman fan.
Divisive indeed, his threads get many responses.

Foreman fan's will tell that George has 4X the power of _______ and 10X the heart of ______ and 1,000,000,000 X the toughness of __________

Quote:
And as a general argument, that part of your post would have been an OK read if I hadn't thought you were talking directly to me.
No you're reasonable but I can't say the same about everybody so sometimes I can be remedial about things only to address in a general context.
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Old 01-20-2011, 12:51 PM   #490
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

bottom line, we are talking of a hypothetical peak, prime tyson vs the same version of lewis...that being the case, the young, viscious, blisteringly powerful tyson would be facing his biggest challenge, his fiercest foe, his nemesis....that being the case, the whole 'underestimating' of his oponent just doesnt rear its ugly head....tyson was a shrewd boxing historian and i think he would have prepared like no other for a fight against big lenny....prime, peak tyson was unshakeable in his belief come ring time, had the right team around him, the right corner, and the dark, doubtfilled corners of his psyche would be illuminated by the light of realsiation that these factors would bring, rather than left to grow and grow as they were when he was surrounded by sycophants and dollar bill chasers....

likewise, lewis is unlikely to be caught cold as he would know tysons force, his strenghts, and, presumeabky 'peak' lewis is post ko lewis..so his frailty had been exposed, and dealt with....so prime l;ewis is gonna be hard to catch, hard to break down...but i realy do blei ve taking all this into accoiunt, mike does the job and stops lewis late or wins a close but c;lear decsison
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Old 01-21-2011, 09:09 PM   #491
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by MPG View Post
Lewis doesnt have the chin to survive.

Tyson KO 2.
exactly

speed , power and combination punching

4 rounds max , lewis chin would not hold up vs a peak tyson
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Old 01-22-2011, 01:32 AM   #492
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

After re watching the first round of their actual fight, i am pretty convinced Tyson would win by knockout. I dont see Lewis's reach advantage being a big advantage since Tyson was so fast. I think Tyson stops him in five.
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Old 01-22-2011, 08:14 AM   #493
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Originally Posted by ironchamp View Post
2. Holyfield I

Watch round 10, it starts at 1:59. The first 2:30 of the round is all Tyson before Holyfield catches him coming in. He didn't have the conditioning necessary to pull the turn. But when you watch it, you can see that he was still fighting as hard as his conditioning and ability would allow him to. I don't think anyone can say that after watching this round that the sentiment of the fight was Tyson was a game loser. He certainly didn't fight like it.

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Well said, i forgot how strongly Tyson was coming on in round 10, after being brutally battered throughout rounds 6 to 9.
Perhaps with better physical conditioning, he would've had the stamina & endurance to survive to lose a decision.
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Old 03-15-2011, 05:10 AM   #494
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

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Old 03-15-2011, 05:55 AM   #495
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis vs Mike Tyson, prime for prime, who wins?

I'd favour Lewis to stop him late or win a UD. Lewis' height, reach, big uppercut and strength would be too much for even a prime Tyson to deal with. Tyson even in his prime could be made to look less effective by big strong guys like Tucker and Smith and Lewis could do the same but also had the offensive tools to fight back.

Tyson would be dangerous early and would definately have a punchers chance but unless he gets lucky or Lewis gets careless, I can't see him putting on enough pressure throughout the whole 12 rounds to force a stoppage.
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