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Old 11-29-2012, 06:19 PM   #1
Webbiano
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Default Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

We all know Larry Holmes' jab is one of the best the sport has ever seen and I don't think there's any debating that, however I've been watching a fair bit of footage lately and noticed that those with a good jab seemed to have really troubled Larry. He looked great against the likes Shavers, Cobb, Berbick, ****ey etc, but many of these fighters had an average jab at best.

Looking at him against Witherspoon, Norton, Michael Spinks x2 (whether he won these fights or not he struggled very badly) and you could throw in Carl Williams there as well.

I'm not saying he would have lost to Thomas, but do you think Holms, and his team, knew this and played a big part into why Pinklon and Larry never thought? I would have Larry favourite for sure, but by his track record I think it would be very close, especially when you consider what a fantastic jab Thomas had himself.

It also makes me question how he'd match up H2H against the best jabbers the heavyweight division has seen like Lewis, Wlad, Ali, Norton (in his prime), Liston, Louis to name a few
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:39 PM   #2
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

Wlad vs Holmes would be the ultimate test of who lays claim to the best jab in the Heavyweight division, maybe throw Sonny in the mix too. It would be interesting to see who would've won the battle of the jabs between Lewis and Holmes as well, considering Lewis himself struggled with good jabbers (Bruno, Mercer, Vitali etc.)
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:13 AM   #3
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
We all know Larry Holmes' jab is one of the best the sport has ever seen and I don't think there's any debating that, however I've been watching a fair bit of footage lately and noticed that those with a good jab seemed to have really troubled Larry. He looked great against the likes Shavers, Cobb, Berbick, ****ey etc, but many of these fighters had an average jab at best.

Looking at him against Witherspoon, Norton, Michael Spinks x2 (whether he won these fights or not he struggled very badly) and you could throw in Carl Williams there as well.

I'm not saying he would have lost to Thomas, but do you think Holms, and his team, knew this and played a big part into why Pinklon and Larry never thought? I would have Larry favourite for sure, but by his track record I think it would be very close, especially when you consider what a fantastic jab Thomas had himself.

It also makes me question how he'd match up H2H against the best jabbers the heavyweight division has seen like Lewis, Wlad, Ali, Norton (in his prime), Liston, Louis to name a few

Lots of face first guys he fought as title challengers. Man, does he look good against the catchers and no footwork opponents. That's always going to make for a mismatch in a Larry Holmes fight and he proved he can beat those guys through his late 40's.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:15 AM   #4
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

Which fighters didn't struggle with great jabs? Mercer, Holyfield and Bruno all troubled Lewis greatly with their jabs, for example. A fighter with a cracking jab is hard nut to crack.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:34 AM   #5
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Which fighters didn't struggle with great jabs? Mercer, Holyfield and Bruno all troubled Lewis greatly with their jabs, for example. A fighter with a cracking jab is hard nut to crack.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:39 AM   #6
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

did 'the thruth' out-jab him all night here...
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7qE_ZV4uRU[/ame]
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:47 AM   #7
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

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did 'the thruth' out-jab him all night here...
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Larry definitely not at his best here though
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

Lewis also struggled with good jabbers, he was really outdone on the outside by Vitali for example. (Lewis took it inside later on where Vitali was much weaker)
He also struggled hard with Bruno.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

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Lewis also struggled with good jabbers, he was really outdone on the outside by Vitali for example. (Lewis took it inside later on where Vitali was much weaker)


ATG Vitali wobbled by a Jab.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:12 PM   #10
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webbiano View Post
We all know Larry Holmes' jab is one of the best the sport has ever seen and I don't think there's any debating that, however I've been watching a fair bit of footage lately and noticed that those with a good jab seemed to have really troubled Larry. He looked great against the likes Shavers, Cobb, Berbick, ****ey etc, but many of these fighters had an average jab at best.

Looking at him against Witherspoon, Norton, Michael Spinks x2 (whether he won these fights or not he struggled very badly) and you could throw in Carl Williams there as well.

I'm not saying he would have lost to Thomas, but do you think Holms, and his team, knew this and played a big part into why Pinklon and Larry never thought? I would have Larry favourite for sure, but by his track record I think it would be very close, especially when you consider what a fantastic jab Thomas had himself.

It also makes me question how he'd match up H2H against the best jabbers the heavyweight division has seen like Lewis, Wlad, Ali, Norton (in his prime), Liston, Louis to name a few

Maybe because of Larry's completely justified confidence in his own jab. If someone's competitive with you in your best field,so to speak,it takes the play away from him a little bit.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:16 PM   #11
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

I think every good jabber struggles when face good jabbers, not only Holmes but Lewis too....
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:20 PM   #12
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

Some of the guys who troubled him were exceptional jabbers though. And a few came when he was past it. In almost every instance he still won.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Which fighters didn't struggle with great jabs? Mercer, Holyfield and Bruno all troubled Lewis greatly with their jabs, for example. A fighter with a cracking jab is hard nut to crack.
I know many great heavyweights struggled against fighters with great jabs like Ali against Norton, Liton against Ali, Lewis against Mercer and Bruno, but I was looking for a reason why McGrain. I think Stevie hit the nail on the head though, Holmes being so big headed about his own abilities (rightfully so, after all, he was one of the greatest heavyweights of all time) that at times he may have used it to much.

Also on the point of the Carl Williams fight. He may not have been outmanned by Carl, but he still only just s****ed by him, in fact, I think last time I scored it I came out with a draw.
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:43 PM   #14
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Default Re: Why did Larry Holmes struggle against good jabbers?

There is an old saying; "Jab a jabber." That was the basis of the success Norton had against Ali, he jabbed when Ali did.
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