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Old 08-13-2007, 09:51 AM   #31
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sthomas
1) If you go into a time capsule fight, your size changes. The dutch have done a study on this and they are on average, 6" taller than they were 50 years ago! Marciano today would be about 6'3" and weigh about 230 Lbs. I think the modern day Rocky would do just fine.

2) Tyson did just fine while he was properly managed

3) Ali won his first championship 2/25/64. On 4/22/95 George Foreman defened his IBF title for the last time. In their only bout Ali beat Foreman in 74'. The direct championship lineage of Ali lasted more than thirty-one years!!!!!!!!

JR Head
Your first point is flawed. Marciano wouldn't necessarily be bigger. 2 and 3 look good though.
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:31 AM   #32
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

I hear all this talk about these really big heavyweights with "superior skills" to giants of past eras, but almost every time there's a heavyweight fight being discussed y'all saying how useless these guys are !


Go and re-watch the likes of Valuev, McCline, Briggs, M.Grant, L.Whitaker, and even many of "smaller" "top guys" like Rahman & Maskaev.
Lumbering oafs all of them.
They hug and hold and stumble around worse than Primo Carnera ever did.
That's what y'all are complaining about.

BTW, the Lennox Lewis-Vitali Klitschko fight a few years ago wasn't exactly a masterclass display of skills and finesse.
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:37 AM   #33
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

The heavyweights of today are better due to one cause.


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The grill.
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Old 08-13-2007, 11:44 AM   #34
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

the tale of the time tells some interesting numbers. george foreman gained 4 1/2 inches on the wrist (?!?) from the 70s to the 90s. explanations?
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Old 08-13-2007, 12:12 PM   #35
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

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Originally Posted by fists of fury
It's not only Liston. Read my post again. The skeletal structure of heavyweights has not changed radically since Sullivan's time. Thigh size has increased dramatically, along with (ironically) waist size to a degree. Most other measurements, such as chest, neck, biceps etc. are not much different from old-timers to now.
Bottomline, they weigh heavier and I am not talking about due to fats. Lewis was fit at 145 lbs. I am not going into details about neck, fist, etc. If you are saying that they all have the same dimensions, then why is Lewis heavier than Foreman?


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Originally Posted by fists of fury
But how many Wlad's and Vitali's are there out there?
How many were there back in the old days? Ziltch. And no, Willard and Carnera do not count. If you do, then you might as well count Savarese and Briggs today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
By the way, you do know that Wlad started out in the pro's in the low 220's, right? Vitali as a kickboxer weighed as low as 205. Take an old-timer like Louis and put him in the modern era and he's a solid 220. Easy. His frame could easily handle that. The same applies to many other old-timers.
When did Wlad start at low 220s?? And who cares what weight he started? He spent majority of his career at the upper 230s. If you want to base on the weight they started, then Joe Louis started at 181 lbs. How's that for a fair comparison?

If you say that Louis could carry 220 then why didn't he? My guess is that he will not be as a great fighter as he is simply because that weight will be too much for him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
To call Foreman a butterball is unfair. Sure he was fat, but he had a lot of muscle too.
Besides, that butterball did pretty well on his comeback against modern, hi-tech trained heavyweights, no?
He had muscles but take his belly off and he would have been at high 220s max

He did fare against mediocare HWs. Everytime he stepped up in competition, he lost (Holyfield, Morrison). He even lost to Schulz. And he was badly losing to Moorer before his power bailed him out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
I have never stated that Marciano was a big guy. He was smallish even by 50's standards.
Of course, Tyson had nowhere near Marciano's punch output per round either.
In fact, most heavyweights today are gassed after 5 fast rounds.


Fact is they are competitive now. Toney fought modern super-duper heavyweight Sam Peter twice.
Holyfield will challenge for the title soon. A blown-up light heavyweight Roy Jones won a title as well.
To say they would do better in the 50's is pure speculation, incidentally.
Toney against Peter is an example of how size matters. Peter's skills is about 10% of Toney but Toney is just too small to beat Peter. He could weigh 230+ but that doesn't mean he was a big guy.

Holyfield had success until he met big guys like Bowe and Lewis.

Jones only got the title from the weakest hw title holder, so his case is hardly convincing. If he knew he had a chance to beat the best at HW, we would have seen him stayed at HW.
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Old 08-13-2007, 02:41 PM   #36
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

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Originally Posted by fists of fury
Holyfield will challenge for the title soon.
By the way, since you like to use Evander as an example. He weighed 190 lbs when he fought at cruiser which many considered as his best weight.

Why did he find it necessary to weigh around 210 during his stint at HW? If it were better for him to weigh 190 (which was around the same as Marciano and Dempsey)?

Fact is, he need those mass to be competitive at HW.
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Old 08-13-2007, 03:56 PM   #37
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sthomas
1) If you go into a time capsule fight, your size changes. The dutch have done a study on this and they are on average, 6" taller than they were 50 years ago! Marciano today would be about 6'3" and weigh about 230 Lbs. I think the modern day Rocky would do just fine.

2) Tyson did just fine while he was properly managed

3) Ali won his first championship 2/25/64. On 4/22/95 George Foreman defened his IBF title for the last time. In their only bout Ali beat Foreman in 74'. The direct championship lineage of Ali lasted more than thirty-one years!!!!!!!!

JR Head
But Marciano was only 5'10 and 185 lb..or should we take 2080th marciano who would be 7'10 and 300 lb and his IQ would be 200..

Marciano was much smaller if you compare him nowadays heavys..
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Old 08-14-2007, 02:26 AM   #38
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

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Originally Posted by PATSYS
By the way, since you like to use Evander as an example. He weighed 190 lbs when he fought at cruiser which many considered as his best weight.

Why did he find it necessary to weigh around 210 during his stint at HW? If it were better for him to weigh 190 (which was around the same as Marciano and Dempsey)?

Fact is, he need those mass to be competitive at HW.
Hey, I have never denied that added size that is useful helps. However, why did Evander stop at 208 (and later at around 215 or so) to win the title? Why did he not weigh in excess of 230? 240?
There is a point of diminishing returns, and a point of no return. How would Evander fight at 240? Probably like shit.
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Old 08-14-2007, 03:10 AM   #39
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

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Originally Posted by JJ
Where do you get that from?

Clearly the food is better today, people simply didnt eat that much fruit 50 years ago...you maybe got an orange on saturday and that was it! The same with vegetables.
I know manny people, myself included still eating only 1 o 2 fruits a week.
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Old 08-14-2007, 05:00 AM   #40
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

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Originally Posted by fists of fury
Hey, I have never denied that added size that is useful helps. However, why did Evander stop at 208 (and later at around 215 or so) to win the title? Why did he not weigh in excess of 230? 240?
There is a point of diminishing returns, and a point of no return. How would Evander fight at 240? Probably like shit.
He can only increase weight so much. from 190 to 215 is 25 lbs, not a neglible weight by any means.

Well actually Evander is somewhat exceptional case because his weight is deceiving. He is no doubt a huge guy, his upper body is no smaller than that of Tyson. The only thing that keeps his weight down is his skinny legs. I bet if you put Tua's legs on Evander, he will instantly weigh close to 250
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Old 08-14-2007, 07:43 AM   #41
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Default Re: Size matters. A discussion on classic vs modern heavyweights.

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Originally Posted by PATSYS
The only thing that keeps his weight down is his skinny legs. I bet if you put Tua's legs on Evander, he will instantly weigh close to 250
Agreed.

Last edited by Flatlander; 05-01-2006 at 07:01 PM.
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