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Old 01-02-2009, 09:23 AM   #31
GazOC
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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Originally Posted by Jack Dempsey View Post
True HW Lineage died when Tunney retired
Or when Jeffies retired. Johnson beating him 6 years later didn't really mean much where "reconnecting" the lineage is concerned IMHO.
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:29 AM   #32
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

If a fighter retires then lineage is reconnecting by becoming the heavyweight champ. Beating the man is something that just pleases the fans and looks better on paper.
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:31 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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If a fighter retires then lineage is reconnecting by becoming the heavyweight champ. Beating the man is something that just pleases the fans and looks better on paper.
It got messed up when Jeffries retires because he nominated two fighters to fight for his title rather than hold any official tournament or go from the rankings and match 1 and 2.
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:38 AM   #34
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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It got messed up when Jeffries retires because he nominated two fighters to fight for his title rather than hold any official tournament or go from the rankings and match 1 and 2.
That was accepted back in the day. It didn't really mess things up. Again, the two best fighters to fight for lineage is subjective so going by the orgs maintains validity to the process. Other retired champs have elected two fighters to fight for the title. I believe Tunney did the same.
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:47 AM   #35
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

Its true there were no orgs or official rankings in those days but its pretty much accepted that Jeffries did a poor job of picking the two fighters. I think either Hart or Root was a friend/ sparring partner of Jeffries but I suppose, back in those days, that was his decision to **** up.
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:52 AM   #36
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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Its true there were no orgs or official rankings in those days but its pretty much accepted that Jeffries did a poor job of picking the two fighters. I think either Hart or Root was a friend/ sparring partner of Jeffries but I suppose, back in those days, that was his decision to **** up.
I am not condoning Jeffries but unfortunately lineal doesn't always mean that the title is fought for by the best or held by the best. However it is the best method to maintaining who the best is on paper and it's the best thing for fighters to work towards.

Braddock was champ when Louis wasn't, doesn't mean we should re-write history. Louis did the right thing, went after Braddock and smashed him up. Briggs was lineal when Lewis wasn't. Lewis did the best thing and fought him and beat him. It's happened many times in history. However we must stop all these fans from crowning who they THINK is the best as lineal. The lineal process must be honoured so we can maintain some credibility and legitimacy in the sport. Otherwise we might as well all write our own lineage in each division based on a million different methods.

Very few people in the sport are educated about the real process of determining the best fighter (at least on paper).
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:54 AM   #37
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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Originally Posted by achillesthegreat View Post
I am not condoning Jeffries but unfortunately lineal doesn't always mean that the title is fought for by the best or held by the best. However it is the best method to maintaining who the best is on paper and it's the best thing for fighters to work towards.

Braddock was champ when Louis wasn't, doesn't mean we should re-write history. Louis did the right thing, went after Braddock and smashed him up. Briggs was lineal when Lewis wasn't. Lewis did the best thing and fought him and beat him. It's happened many times in history. However we must stop all these fans from crowning who they THINK is the best as lineal. The lineal process must be honoured so we can maintain some credibility and legitimacy in the sport. Otherwise we might as well all write our own lineage in each division based on a million different methods.

Very few people in the sport are educated about the real process of determining the best fighter (at least on paper).
So the true process of crowning a new linear champion is by unifying the WBC and WBA and sticking two fingers up at the other belts?
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Old 01-02-2009, 10:04 AM   #38
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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Braddock was champ when Louis wasn't, doesn't mean we should re-write history. Louis did the right thing, went after Braddock and smashed him up. Briggs was lineal when Lewis wasn't. Lewis did the best thing and fought him and beat him. It's happened many times in history. However we must stop all these fans from crowning who they THINK is the best as lineal. The lineal process must be honoured so we can maintain some credibility and legitimacy in the sport. Otherwise we might as well all write our own lineage in each division based on a million different methods.
I totally agree, its not about who people think is the best its about who beat the man (where ever possible). Tyson and Spinks were in a similar situation, Tyson was unquestionably the best HW in the world but Spinks was the champ in my book until Tyson beat him.

With fighters retiring, coming back etc there are always compromises going to be have to made but I do think the way they did it in Jeffries day was ridiculous. I know times were different but when Ali was stripped at least the WBA invited the best 4(?) in their ranking to participate rather than ask Ali to nominate a couple of mates.
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Old 01-02-2009, 10:43 AM   #39
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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So the true process of crowning a new linear champion is by unifying the WBC and WBA and sticking two fingers up at the other belts?
I favour a unifcation of the WBA, WBC and IBF belts to create a new lineage when there is a vacancy.

Though I can see a traditionalist argument for the WBA and WBC being sufficient.

What I would vehemently argue is that the WBA and WBC are both necessary for the establishment of a new lineage.

People who claim Erdei as LHW linear champion are maintaining that a lineage was created without the WBC belt ever being involved. People who claim Marquez as linear champion at 135 are maintaining that a lineage was created without the WBA belt ever being involved. People who claim Adamek as linear at CW (these aren't particularly numerous, but I've seen a couple) are maintaining that a lineage has been created without either belt.
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:32 AM   #40
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

Linear champ is a real challenge to determine at any weight class and HW is one of the most difficult. I do think that someone needs to beat both Klitschkos (given that they'll never face each other) in order to be lineal champ. But If we're all honest, Vit is the man of the moment and should be regarded as 'the man' at heavyweight. A win over Vit should make anyone the real champ. If you're good enough to beat Vit then in my opinion you're good enough to beat Wlad. Hopefully Haye can prove it!
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:42 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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So the true process of crowning a new linear champion is by unifying the WBC and WBA and sticking two fingers up at the other belts?
Yes, however I do think the other champions should be considered the top contenders for the true title.
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:44 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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Tyson and Spinks were in a similar situation, Tyson was unquestionably the best HW in the world but Spinks was the champ in my book until Tyson beat him.
Good example.
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Old 01-02-2009, 04:44 PM   #43
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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People who claim Erdei as LHW linear champion are maintaining that a lineage was created without the WBC belt ever being involved. People who claim Marquez as linear champion at 135 are maintaining that a lineage was created without the WBA belt ever being involved. People who claim Adamek as linear at CW (these aren't particularly numerous, but I've seen a couple) are maintaining that a lineage has been created without either belt.
True. WBC and WBA are a must.
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:18 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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Technically the linear champ would be the winner of Vit v Haye facing Chagaev to unify the WBC and WBA titles. THE IBF and WBO titles do not really account to linear as they are merely splinter groups.

Surely the WBA is a splinter group, with the internal coup of 1974 changing the organizations structure completely from what it was when it changed its name to the WBA from the NBA in 62?

In IMO alphabet crap has little to do with lineage, and if you do feel they do, then there has not been a champ at Heavy* since 89; Cruiser since 88; 175lbs since 85; 168lbs since 87; Middle since 86; 154lbs since 75; 147lbs since 86; 140lbs since 67; Lightweight since 78; 130lbs since 68; 126lbs since 67; 122lbs since 77; 118lbs since 72; 115lbs since 81; 112lbs since 65; 108lbs since 75 and 105lbs since 87.

*All dates according to Bob Mee
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Old 01-02-2009, 05:44 PM   #45
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

Haye needs to beat vit in order to make to heavyweight division more exciting and to bring abit of life into it.
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