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Old 01-07-2009, 01:31 PM   #61
dan-b
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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Originally Posted by achillesthegreat View Post
But then why are the IBF involved?
I know what argument you're going to make here but for the last 20 years we have considered the undisputed heavyweight champion to be holder of the WBC/WBA/IBF titles. I think for establishing lineage it would be preferable to have the three unified. I do understand your stance though.
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Old 01-07-2009, 03:38 PM   #62
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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I know what argument you're going to make here but for the last 20 years we have considered the undisputed heavyweight champion to be holder of the WBC/WBA/IBF titles. I think for establishing lineage it would be preferable to have the three unified. I do understand your stance though.
Your argument is the same that will be held in a few years when every accepts the WBO. The same stance will be held 10 years after that when people accept the IBO. Eventually boxing will die or become a joke. The idea is completely ridiculous.

WBC and WBA for real linear. IBF and WBO should be considered number 1 challenges out there cos being a titlist is the next level of fighter after linear/unified.

It must also be recognised that the IBF had to gain acceptance and recognition. They often conceded on many points just so they could sanction fights and get recognised. The WBO are going the same way and the IBO is looking reputable too.

Being linear is rooted in history. History can't be re-written for the IBF. People simply need to be educated.
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Old 01-07-2009, 03:41 PM   #63
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

will liven up the division
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Old 01-07-2009, 03:59 PM   #64
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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Originally Posted by achillesthegreat View Post
Your argument is the same that will be held in a few years when every accepts the WBO. The same stance will be held 10 years after that when people accept the IBO. Eventually boxing will die or become a joke. The idea is completely ridiculous.

WBC and WBA for real linear. IBF and WBO should be considered number 1 challenges out there cos being a titlist is the next level of fighter after linear/unified.

It must also be recognised that the IBF had to gain acceptance and recognition. They often conceded on many points just so they could sanction fights and get recognised. The WBO are going the same way and the IBO is looking reputable too.

Being linear is rooted in history. History can't be re-written for the IBF. People simply need to be educated.
But then, following that logic, could we not conceivably say that the WBA holder is the linear champion? It was someone else who said in this thread that WBC/WBA/IBF unification to establish new lineage and I still agree with that. I do agree, however, that a traditionalist argument can be made for just the WBC and WBA belts. Why do you deem the idea "completely ridiculous"?

For the record, I would never accept the WBO and IBO as legitimate belts and consistently argue vehemently against it.
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:00 PM   #65
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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would you include valuev in the mix?
In my view, to make the claim of being linear champ then the WBA strap MUST be in the mix, Valuev or not
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:11 PM   #66
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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But then, following that logic, could we not conceivably say that the WBA holder is the linear champion? It was someone else who said in this thread that WBC/WBA/IBF unification to establish new lineage and I still agree with that. I do agree, however, that a traditionalist argument can be made for just the WBC and WBA belts. Why do you deem the idea "completely ridiculous"?

For the record, I would never accept the WBO and IBO as legitimate belts and consistently argue vehemently against it.
No because traditionally it wasn't just the NBA that decided champs. The NYSAC, BBBofC etc were involved. The WBC unified these orgs.

The idea is ridiculous cos there is no argument for it. Its simply people decided to include the IBF and it was done more so because they are not educated about the history of lineage.

You will consistently argue against the WBO but it is getting more acceptance everyday and soon more uneducated fans will consider it part of lineage. There are already fans who think a fighter should unify all 4 belts.
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:12 PM   #67
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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In my view, to make the claim of being linear champ then the WBA strap MUST be in the mix, Valuev or not
Valuev is not the champion so no he isn't in the mix. Chagaev is.
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:29 PM   #68
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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No because traditionally it wasn't just the NBA that decided champs. The NYSAC, BBBofC etc were involved. The WBC unified these orgs.

The idea is ridiculous cos there is no argument for it. Its simply people decided to include the IBF and it was done more so because they are not educated about the history of lineage.

You will consistently argue against the WBO but it is getting more acceptance everyday and soon more uneducated fans will consider it part of lineage. There are already fans who think a fighter should unify all 4 belts.
I fully understand the concept behind what you're saying, it's irrefutable. I think the reason I would prefer to see it included now, in this specific scenario, is because it would be cleaner and would establish a clear champ. Obviously after that whatever the sanctioning bodies decide is irrelavent. We would have our linear champ.

I'm not sure how many people would argue for all four being needed to establish lineage because I'm not sure many people understand the concept. I do, howver, think people need all four to be considered undisputed champ which I also oppose because I don't recognise the WBO.
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:29 PM   #69
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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So the true process of crowning a new linear champion is by unifying the WBC and WBA and sticking two fingers up at the other belts?
That would certainly be my view, but it is obviously open to debate
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:08 PM   #70
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

There is a similar thread on the GF, and to be honest not many posters on there actually grasp the idea of lineage
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:19 PM   #71
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Default Re: The Linear Heavyweight title: What next?

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Not really. The WBA today still originates from the NBA, it even says so on its website.

Well then it must be so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The truth is the WBA as it stands is merely the bastard off-spring of the NBA, and nothing more. If you want clarity from such an organization then so be it, after all many a bastard king has existed.
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