Rocky Marciano v Wills, Langford & McVey

[McGrain]

Originally Posted by janitor

Marciano vs peak Sam Langford would be a pick em fight. Langford was virtualy impossible to KO so it is likley going to the score cards. Marciano would probably visit the canvas a couple of times en route to the final bell. His best bet is to cut the ring on Lanngford and try to outwork him.

As an aside, and taking into account the limited footage we have, who do you think was better at cutting of the ring, Langford or Marciano?

[Luigi1985]

Wills chin was mediocre at the top level, so IMO he would be ahead on points until the stoppage where Marciano KO´d him, McVey was a strong puncher but with a shitty defense, so he would also get KO´d IMO, Langford would have the best chances, but IMO he´s too small to beat the pysically much stronger Marciano, who was similar like him, only in everything a bit better than Langford...

[janitor]

Originally Posted by McGrain

As an aside, and taking into account the limited footage we have, who do you think was better at cutting of the ring, Langford or Marciano?

Langford was certainly far more nimble on his feet than Marciano though that dose not necisarlily mean that he aplied his footwork better to cutting off the ring.

In this match up I see Rocky as being the one to force the fight with Langford using lateral movment to prevent him setting up shots.

[Sweet Science]

Originally Posted by Luigi1985

Wills chin was mediocre at the top level, so IMO he would be ahead on points until the stoppage where Marciano KO´d him, McVey was a strong puncher but with a shitty defense, so he would also get KO´d IMO, Langford would have the best chances, but IMO he´s too small to beat the pysically much stronger Marciano, who was similar like him, only in everything a bit better than Langford...

Luigi, thats just not true. Marciano was not at all better than Langford at everything. Marciano certainly had more power. But Langford had much faster hands, he was a very good defensive fighter, was a masterful boxer of his time and had as much endurance as Marciano maybe more.

Langford would have the best chances, but IMO he´s too small to beat the pysically much stronger Marciano

By age 27 Langford was campaigning at heavyweight and weighed 180, which is not much less than Marciano who himself was a fairly small Heavyweight.

[Luigi1985]

Originally Posted by Sweet Science

Luigi, thats just not true. Marciano was not at all better than Langford at everything. Marciano certainly had more power. But Langford had much faster hands, he was a very good defensive fighter, was a masterful boxer of his time and had as much endurance as Marciano maybe more.

Forget it, Langford much faster hands, masterful boxer? From where have you that informations? Langford had great stamina, very good chin, great power and a great heart. If he had also great handspeed, was very fast combinated with great defensive skills than he would have been unbeatable...


Langford was delicated for example for counter punches, Rocky wasn´t a great counter boxer, but he could have taken Langford´s best shots and counter with his shots...

[janitor]

Sam Langford was not verry much like Rocky Marciano. Jack Dempsey would be a much better comparison.

[Sweet Science]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Luigi1985

Forget it, Langford much faster hands, masterful boxer? From where have you that informations? Langford had great stamina, very good chin, great power and a great heart. If he had also great handspeed, was very fast combinated with great defensive skills than he would have been unbeatable...quote]

Well most thought he was unbeatable, thats why he was the most avoided boxer in history. The majority of his losses occured during the latter part of his career when he was basically blind.

It's common knowledge that he had great defensive skills and hand speed. There might not be a great wealth of footage but I would take the late Nat Fleischer's opinion over yours any day.

[Luigi1985]

[quote=Sweet Science]

Well most thought he was unbeatable, thats why he was the most avoided boxer in history. The majority of his losses occured during the latter part of his career when he was basically blind.

It's common knowledge that he had great defensive skills and hand speed. There might not be a great wealth of footage but I would take the late Nat Fleischer's opinion over yours any day.

Fleischer´s opinion is often biased, it´s not a secret that Langford is one of his favourite fighters...

[Sweet Science]

Originally Posted by Luigi1985

Fleischer´s opinion is often biased, it´s not a secret that Langford is one of his favourite fighters...

Langford was one of Fleischer's favourite fighters for one simple reason because he was widely regarded the best fighter of his time. If anyone is biased here it is you toward Marciano, in your earlier post you say Marciano was very much like Langford only better in every way?!. I like Marciano, infact I think he is often underrated by many who unfairly dismiss him by saying he was only 49-0 becuase he fought old fighters, didn't have great skills etc - btw I disagree with this.

Many notable critics of the time besides Fleischer (e.g. Herb Goldman and Charley Rose) thought Langford was the best of his era:

Laney wrote, (Book of Boxing p 186), "This is the man competent critics said was the greatest fighter in ring history, the man the champions feared and would not fight, the man who was so good he was never given a chance to show how good he really was."

William Detloff wrote, (2004 p 123), "Langford wasn't simply an all out slugger. He was smart and crafty and knew how to out-think guys in the ring. He could fight inside or outside and was impossibly strong. He was decades ahead of his time."

Mike Silver stated, (1998 p 125), that Sam was "Quite possibly the greatest fighter who ever lived, Langford mastered every punch. His short hook on the inside and his right cross and uppercut were particularly deadly. His punishing jab was also one of the best. He was a strategist who knew how to maneuver, with the ability to explode out of an offensive or defensive position. He could instantly stop when retreating, revert to the offensive, and in the blink of an eye render an opponent unconsious with trip-hammer blows thrown in four and five punch combinations. Langford's every move embodied the technique of a studied master boxer. During his prime he was rarely outfought, out-thought, or out-punched."


Gilbert Odd penned, (1983 p 65), “Langford with his massive pair of shoulders and long arms was a danger to anyone. Although only a middleweight he gave weight and a beating to many heavyweights.”
Stockton stated (1977 p 33) "Langford had all the attributes of a great fighter, speed, punching power, an amazingly elusive defense, the ability to absorb punishment, and unlimited endurance."

Diamond wrote (1954 p 82) “Sam Langford was a great fighter in an age of great fighters. In proportion to his height and weight there never was a greater fighting man."

Norman Clark who saw Sam fight on his tour of England wrote, (1935 p 106), “On the whole, I think Langford was the most tremendous hitter in the Ring at this time; for, whereas Johnson would not, as a rule, let the heavy stuff fly until he had worn the man down, Sam always waded right in and immediately let go punches heavy enough to drop anyone. Of course, he had to work up his punch to an extent, however, and this he usually did on the giant Negro, Bob Armstrong, whom he had training with him. As he sparred with Armstrong, every now and again he would give him a dig "downstairs" that would have the big fellow gasping, and, to keep moving, he would then shadow-box for a short time before coming back to resume operations. There would be a few more exchanges, then whop! In would go another one to the body, and exclaim, "Oh"! He's got cramp again", Sam would do a little more shadow-boxing: and so, and so on.”

Clark also marveled at Sam’s quickness, (1935 p 10 “For working up speed Langford had Jimmy Walsh, the bantamweight champion of the world, with him. The pair used to box together lightly, but at a great pace, and I was surprised to find that even in this sort of work Sam was every bit as fast and clever as Walsh himself.”

Furthermore some of the best fighters of the time also observed and testified to Langford's greatness including Gans, Wills and Walcott to name but a few.

Luigi, you need to go back to the drawing board and reasssess Langford as your opinion of him is severely flawed.

[janitor]

[quote=Luigi1985]

Originally Posted by Sweet Science

Fleischer´s opinion is often biased, it´s not a secret that Langford is one of his favourite fighters...

Langford is probably the single most under rated heavyweight of all time. As a complete ofensive package he was right up there with Joe Louis.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by McGrain

This is close to my own view.

What chance, if any, to you give Wills of stopping Marciano? I'd say he has to do it before 8 ish if he's going to do it.

Anyone could be KO"D Willis could punch but I would not put him in with the ELITE punchers, I think the type of guy that could stop Marciano is a guy that could hit like a horse and stop him in his tracks, trouble with that is that most guys with that kind of punching power are usually open to get hit themselves and run out of steam, guys like Foreman,Liston,etc. have a chance but if they got tired, or ran out of gas the last guy you would want to be in there with would be Marciano, remember Tyson after dropping Douglas in the 9th round with his best punch,gave up when he saw Buster get up to fight,Tyson lost his will after that and that was not a thing you would expect from Buster before that fight and after it. It was after that fight that the blueprint on how to beat Tyson was made clear. To get back to the point I dont think Willis could stop Rocky

[McGrain]

Some nice stuff there Sweet Science, I printed this page of, cheers.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Some nice stuff there Sweet Science, I printed this page of, cheers.

Sweet Science posted some good stuff. Did he mention Charley Rose’s opinion on Sam Langford? Rose was a manager of fighters and a historian. He felt Langford was better than Johnson, Jefffries, Dempsey, Marciano, and Louis. In fact he had Langford as his all time #1 heavyweight.

[Sweet Science]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Some nice stuff there Sweet Science, I printed this page of, cheers.

no probs mate, you're welcome. I'm glad it was useful

[Marciano Frazier]

To tell the tuth, I think McVey is a little overrated as a puncher. In all his 20-some-odd fights with Langford, Jeanette, McVey and Johnson, he managed not a single stoppage win. However, he was tough, strong, swift, aggressive and durable, in addition to having pretty good power. I think McVey would rough Rocky up more than a little, but Marciano stops him late in a grueling match.

Langford, on the other hand, went more than a decade and 100 fights without being stopped once in 1906-1917, despite facing some of the stiffest opposition on the planet, so it seems probable he's lasting the distance. I think Marciano's superior size, strength, durability, power and workrate carries him to a close decision.

As for Wills, I have to confess I've seen barely any footage of him. From what I have, he seems to have been a fairly straight-up guy, a solid infighter for a tall, rangy type, with good power and excellent endurance. Not immensely durable, but with a solid enough chin.

If Marciano fought each of these guys at least five or six times, like they did with each other in their own era, I expect he'd lose at least once to each of them.