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Old 09-25-2011, 10:39 AM   #256
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

I think they were all great, in their own ways, Ali, Johnson and Louis. Any white guy who looked at any of the three had to shut his mouth when he started ranting about the negro race.

I don't know much about Johnson, other than he loved the women (so do I) and he loved to show off his money (wish I could).

About the Mann Act? BS. She was willing.

I never heard it said he ever hurt anyone. He had the courage to live his life like he wanted to. I admire that. And he showed whites there was no way they could look down on a black athlete.

I have absolutely the highest regard for Joe Louis. He was a credit to all of us. I've already said how he affected my family for the better. Maybe did more to cure racism than any other person.

Ali is a hero for me. He refused to go to Viet Nam and helped end that horrible war. At a cost of millions to his own personal pocket.

All three were great men and great boxers as far as I am concerned.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:40 AM   #257
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Jack Johnson didn't hate white people, it was white racists that hated him, he had lots of white girlfriends. Your rant is a bit silly considering Pacheles is most likely a white Englishman, he's not black at any rate.

In essence Ali/Johnson are the type that rile certain conservatives because they stand up against American racism. Louis acted submissive in nature, not to cause offence, quite acceptable for the racist Americans
I am a conservative and proud of it. So because a Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, Archie Moore, Ray Robinson,and many other great black fighters of my time
got along with the white establishment they would be considered Uncle Tom's.? Because I am white and from the second WW generation,I would be a "racist" ? Do U know my background from 3000 miles away.? Of course there are bigots in America, but they are now the vast minority of Americans today,as there are Black racists today just as prevalant in our
complicated society...So PP I don't give a damn what color P is. He is still a hate mongerer. Have a good day. Now back to boxing...
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:41 AM   #258
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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That's fair to say but a quick look at what happened to Ali and Johnson at the hands of white America should be explanation enough as to why. If you just want to box, you had to play the game. Louis made his decision. He also made quite the impact in terms of race relations by doing so. But essentially you are correct I think.
I once came across a transcript of a phone call between Ali-Frazier pre FOTC (in a Ali biography from the 70s) while Ali was banned, both considered Johnson the best HW of all time, they saw him as a hero. I'm not sure of how much of that was creative licence, but Johnson did have quite an impact. I think Johnson must have played the game initially and wonder if his behaviour changed after the discrimination he faced., Such as his lewd behaviour such as wrapping gauze around his penis - is that even true actually??

People forget now that Ali was hated, was it Patterson that said 'I'm bringing the championship back to America', 'Terrell called him Clay', which pissed him off. When Frazier won the papers read 'Ali is beaten' rather than 'Frazier wins'. People were essentially paying to see him lose like Mayweather today. Being the charismatic humorous figure he was though, he was loved aswell as hated, plus the cool white liberals thought he was a civil rights icon

Conservatives and racists may have despised Johnson, but white's aren't homogeneous group, some would have admired his balls, skill and ability. Even during the time. If nothing else Johnson brought racial inequalities up for debate. Did he care about the plight of his fellow black man? I'm not sure, was he a selfish man, I'm not enough of a historian to tell, but we all put our self interests first if we're honest.


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PP,I did not say Jack Johnson hated people and whites in particular. I have great respect for Johnson,for what he went through in his day.But Jack Johnson was no Martin Luther King,but a hedonist without a cause, but to do what he wanted to do. My remark was to defend Joe Louis from the scurrilous slander,that Joe Louis was a "well behaved pet",by some poster
devoid of any sense . Cheers...
Fair play mate, Pacheles is only joking don't take him too seriously

The post he just made btw is the same rant as Mayweather made to Merchant
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:42 AM   #259
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

On a serious note, although it may have looked it, i didnt mean 'he was a pet' as a knock on Louis, i have nothing but respect for the legend.

I only meant as in, as another poster said, he had to play the game. And the game was being a well behaved black man. The last time a black fighter came along with the nerve to have a personality, the whole race was banned from fighting for the title.

And also as some other poster commented on, Joe Louis 'picked his battles' for his people and offered a helping hand in a more subtle fashion, which i agree is very admirable. And wise(whether it was intentional wisdom or subconcious wisdom)
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:47 AM   #260
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

It was obvious that it wasn't meant as a negative remark, Burt was just defensive, and mistook you. It was an obvious comparison you made.
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Old 09-25-2011, 10:52 AM   #261
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
I am a conservative and proud of it. So because a Joe Louis, Joe Walcott, Archie Moore, Ray Robinson,and many other great black fighters of my time
got along with the white establishment they would be considered Uncle Tom's.? Because I am white and from the second WW generation,I would be a "racist" ? Do U know my background from 3000 miles away.? Of course there are bigots in America, but they are now the vast minority of Americans today,as there are Black racists today just as prevalant in our
complicated society...So PP I don't give a damn what color P is. He is still a hate mongerer. Have a good day. Now back to boxing...
I wouldn't consider them 'Uncle Toms', I don't like that term, many black people of those times had to accept a role as a second class citizen or face severe repercussions. Sam Langford for example would cross the road when white people were approaching as not to appear offensive to them. HE accepted that as his position in society despite being 1 of the best fighters of his day

I do think Louis for example was managed to come across as submissive, polite and non-threatening to the white race. Hence his relationships with white women were hid from the public eye.

Robinson ofcourse is an exception and lived like a rockstar.
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:13 AM   #262
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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I wouldn't consider them 'Uncle Toms', I don't like that term, many black people of those times had to accept a role as a second class citizen or face severe repercussions. Sam Langford for example would cross the road when white people were approaching as not to appear offensive to them. HE accepted that as his position in society despite being 1 of the best fighters of his day

I do think Louis for example was managed to come across as submissive, polite and non-threatening to the white race. Hence his relationships with white women were hid from the public eye.

Robinson ofcourse is an exception and lived like a rockstar.
PP,I should know about discrimination against black fighters more than you.I was from an era before the Civil Rights Law and saw what was going on those days.My first awareness of this bigotry was a a young boy I lived next door to a trainer of the great LH JohnHenry Lewis,I would go next door and box with some stablemates of JHL.One of those fighters was a
welter Tommy Jones who "adopted me".He would spar with this young tyke most every night until he left for Australia. I asked the trainer why did Tommy go to Australia ? And the answer was 'cause he was black and couldn't get much fights in America" .So that was my first inkling of discrimination in boxing. But that was THEN, and now is NOW.Great strides have been made in the USA, and to belittle my idol Joe Louis ,is to me sacrilege. Even in jest. Have a good day...
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:25 AM   #263
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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Originally Posted by burt bienstock View Post
PP,I should know about discrimination against black fighters more than you.I was from an era before the Civil Rights Law and saw what was going on those days.My first awareness of this bigotry was a a young boy I lived next door to a trainer of the great LH JohnHenry Lewis,I would go next door and box with some stablemates of JHL.One of those fighters was a
welter Tommy Jones who "adopted me".He would spar with this young tyke most every night until he left for Australia. I asked the trainer why did Tommy go to Australia ? And the answer was 'cause he was black and couldn't get much fights in America" .So that was my first inkling of discrimination in boxing. But that was THEN, and now is NOW.Great strides have been made in the USA, and to belittle my idol Joe Louis ,is to me sacrilege. Even in jest. Have a good day...
Yes, that was THEN and now is NOW. And unless im mistaken, we are infact talking about THEN. No one is belittling Joe Louis.
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:38 AM   #264
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Joe Louis was a well behaved pet. Jack Johnson was a rabid dog, in an era full of dog catchers, who couldnt catch him!
P,don't obfuscate. Above is your exact words saying Joe Louis is a "well behaved pet". You cannot deny what you said. Words have meaning ,even on ESB. And Joe Louis was what he was ,a decent man without a trace of arrogance...Cheers.
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:46 AM   #265
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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I wish I was black.
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:48 AM   #266
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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P,don't obfuscate. Above is your exact words saying Joe Louis is a "well behaved pet". You cannot deny what you said. Words have meaning ,even on ESB. And Joe Louis was what he was ,a decent man without a trace of arrogance...Cheers.
you're impossible
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:58 AM   #267
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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you're impossible
No, just fair
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:55 AM   #268
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Of Jack Johnson did nothing for black atheletes or black people period. He was a uncle tom who turn his back on black people to date white trash. He was a disgrace to our people. Just the Floyd Mayweathers and Michael Jordans of the world.
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:58 AM   #269
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Joe Louis was a "YES MAN", and listened and did whatever the "White Establishment" wanted him to do".

Jackson Johnson was "Rock and Roll", and didn't do or act like the "White Establishment" wanted him to.

Both of them paved the way for black athlete's.
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Old 09-27-2011, 12:16 PM   #270
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black is a state of mind
Hipster.
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