Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

[sugar71]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

I second that.

Sure, it doesn't look good that he never gave guys like Langford a shot at his title, but as already have been pointed out, that's not where the money was. Classic high risk, low reward. And anyone who hasn't had to fight (literally) his way out of poverty is in no place to be the judge of such decisions IMO.

Good observation, it was a high risk proposition as MCvea,Jeneatte & Langford were probably the three of the best heavyweight contenders. But the fact is Jack Johnson did defend his title(Colored Heavyweight Champion) on at least 13 occasions against those 3 men alone & only lost once by disqualification to Joe Jeanette.

How many times must the man beat these guys? 15? 20? 25 times? The heavyweight title was a goldmie & Johnson was wise not to risk it by giving these great fighters chance after chance. I'm sure they would have eventually caught him someday.

Nat Fleischer actually saw in person nearly every Heavyweight Championship fight from Corbett up to Ali-Frazier I & was covinced(as many other experts) that Jack Johnson was the greatest Heavyweight of all time(Fleischer was admittedly kind to the old timers, however). Every boxing expert (ALI included)who has seen highlights of Johnsons fights are impressed with his techinical superiorty & advancement over his peers. Especially his defensive skills as his offensive skills were a bit crude.

[PH|LLA]

Originally Posted by $.02

In my opinion, this takes away from Joe louis, Who was the first and only real black athlete to pave the way for future black athletes.

[fists of fury]

Interesting thread...I agree with the general sentiment of it. Interestingly, Jack Johnson once tried to persuade Joe Louis to fire Jack Blackburn and hire him as his trainer instead.*

*Source: Joe Louis: The Great Black Hope by Richard Bak.

[flamengo]

I believe, at this stage, the semtiments regarding Johnson, and his total disregard of 'authority'/equality/control/standardisation... becomes a considerable view point for others to learn from...

[ChrisPontius]

Jack Johnson was a brave man, but also a selfish prick.

[flamengo]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Jack Johnson was a brave man, but also a selfish prick.

Pontius... for the first time, I believe there may be a similation of agreement between us.....His selfishness is commonly called pravado, in this day and age.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Jack Johnson was a brave man, but also a selfish prick.

In which way was he a selfish prick? Sure, he made no real efforts (as I know of) to better the situation for others. But very few fighters have. By such standards would for example also Robinson qualify as a selfish, as well as wife beating, prick, wouldn't he?

[flamengo]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

In which way was he a selfish prick? Sure, he made no real efforts (as I know of) to better the situation for others. But very few fighters have. By such standards would for example also Robinson qualify as a selfish, as well as wife beating, prick, wouldn't he?

Carlos Monzon might argue that point!!!

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

In which way was he a selfish prick? Sure, he made no real efforts (as I know of) to better the situation for others. But very few fighters have. By such standards would for example also Robinson qualify as a selfish, as well as wife beating, prick, wouldn't he?

In the sense that he (rightfully) complained about black people being frozen out of the title picture as well as other rights, but once he overcame that, he acted exactly the same and refused to give black fighters, who were much better than the white heavyweights during his reign, a well-earned title shot.

Then there's the bit where he was not only hoping and predicting Joe Louis to lose, but also training his opponents to accomplish that, just so he would be recognized as the only black champion.


Now let me make clear i don't really care about that for him as a boxer (Monzon was a piece of shit, Ali supported a racist cult group, etc etc), but Johnson was a prick. When the subject of paving the way for black athletes comes up, Louis is definitely first. And again, i don't blame Johnson for the attitude he had (it's not his problem that most white people were fucking retards back then), but Louis did do more for his brothers. A lot more.

[McGrain]

The man was a pioneer. What he did was all but impossible. But he was not an activist. He was not a trailblazer. He was terribly brave.

Some people want to much.

Chris, I think Louis did the heavy lifting, but Tiger Flowers deserves credit for being the first to move black boxers along last century.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

In the sense that he (rightfully) complained about black people being frozen out of the title picture as well as other rights, but once he overcame that, he acted exactly the same and refused to give black fighters, who were much better than the white heavyweights during his reign, a well-earned title shot.

Then there's the bit where he was not only hoping and predicting Joe Louis to lose, but also training his opponents to accomplish that, just so he would be recognized as the only black champion.


Now let me make clear i don't really care about that for him as a boxer (Monzon was a piece of shit, Ali supported a racist cult group, etc etc), but Johnson was a prick. When the subject of paving the way for black athletes comes up, Louis is definitely first. And again, i don't blame Johnson for the attitude he had (it's not his problem that most white people were fucking retards back then), but Louis did do more for his brothers. A lot more.

While I don't think the things you mention above qualifies Johnson as a prick (rather as someone looking out for his own interests - as Dempsey, Robinson and many others also did - and being ungenerous to up and coming greats - something you could argue even Louis was too a certain degree) I agree that Louis did more for blacks.

Here are some that truly qualfies as pricks IMO:

Corbett (selfserving, racist sod)
Monzon (murderer)
Robinson (wife beater galore)
Sullivan (racist sod)

And one could also add:

Tyson (a quitter that truly wanted to hurt opponents in the ring and acted as a graceless thug - which he in essence was in many ways -outside of it)

Duran (pretty similar. His antics towards Leonard's wife before their first fight and his quit job in their rematch seems to be a bit hushed down here.)

Johnson never had any of these attributes as far as I know. Rather he was more of a Roy Jones or a James Toney in a time where it required some gigantic marbles to be that.

[Dempsey1238]

Johnson is a wife beater.

[Bokaj]

Originally Posted by Dempsey1238

Johnson is a wife beater.

I never heard that before, but if he was then he qualifies for being a prick in my book.

[sugar71]

Originally Posted by Bokaj

I never heard that before, but if he was then he qualifies for being a prick in my book.

Getting into anecdotal stories about prizefighters & their abusiveness is pointless as in the Great Black Hope it is confirmed what Lena Horne has claimed that Joe Louis smacked her around & nearly choked her to unconciousness once. Sugar Ray Leonard admits to cocaine abuse between 1982-87 & there were rumors of him smacking around Juanita before they split.

We can fruitlessly go on for days about the shameful behavior of athletes, politicians,actors,etc.... It will get us nowhere. Essentially good men sometimes do shameful things.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by McGrain

Chris, I think Louis did the heavy lifting, but Tiger Flowers deserves credit for being the first to move black boxers along last century.

Unfortunately i don't know much about Flowers and what he did for his fellow black man. Could you summarize?


One thing to note is that Louis was heavyweight champion of the world. Everyone knew him, so he was able to do more good while maybe Flowers had equally good or better intentions, but comparatively lacked the power to do so.

Originally Posted by Bokaj

While I don't think the things you mention above qualifies Johnson as a prick (rather as someone looking out for his own interests - as Dempsey, Robinson and many others also did - and being ungenerous to up and coming greats - something you could argue even Louis was too a certain degree) I agree that Louis did more for blacks.

Here are some that truly qualfies as pricks IMO:

Corbett (selfserving, racist sod)
Monzon (murderer)
Robinson (wife beater galore)
Sullivan (racist sod)

And one could also add:

Tyson (a quitter that truly wanted to hurt opponents in the ring and acted as a graceless thug - which he in essence was in many ways -outside of it)

Duran (pretty similar. His antics towards Leonard's wife before their first fight and his quit job in their rematch seems to be a bit hushed down here.)

Johnson never had any of these attributes as far as I know. Rather he was more of a Roy Jones or a James Toney in a time where it required some gigantic marbles to be that.

Maybe i was a bit harsh in calling him a prick, but selfish he was. Of course that's not a death sin and he didn't owe it to ANYBODY to not rebel against the shit treatment he had always gotten, nor did he have an obligation to help the situation .... after all, it's not his fault that racism was on such a bad level back then.

But be that as it may, Joe Louis sacrificed himself by not doing what he wanted to and probably felt like doing, but instead helped the black race. That takes incredible willpower and courage. He developed an introvert kind of charisma which made many white people realize that a "n*gger" is human too. That's i think he's a hero, on top of a great fighter and a gutsy man, the latter two of which Johnson also is.

And anyone calling him an uncle tom for helping his race is just as stupid as believing the uncle tom crap that Ali pulled on Frazier.