Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-12-2009, 04:12 AM   #46
sugar71
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 404
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
I second that.

Sure, it doesn't look good that he never gave guys like Langford a shot at his title, but as already have been pointed out, that's not where the money was. Classic high risk, low reward. And anyone who hasn't had to fight (literally) his way out of poverty is in no place to be the judge of such decisions IMO.
Good observation, it was a high risk proposition as MCvea,Jeneatte & Langford were probably the three of the best heavyweight contenders. But the fact is Jack Johnson did defend his title(Colored Heavyweight Champion) on at least 13 occasions against those 3 men alone & only lost once by disqualification to Joe Jeanette.

How many times must the man beat these guys? 15? 20? 25 times? The heavyweight title was a goldmie & Johnson was wise not to risk it by giving these great fighters chance after chance. I'm sure they would have eventually caught him someday.

Nat Fleischer actually saw in person nearly every Heavyweight Championship fight from Corbett up to Ali-Frazier I & was covinced(as many other experts) that Jack Johnson was the greatest Heavyweight of all time(Fleischer was admittedly kind to the old timers, however). Every boxing expert (ALI included)who has seen highlights of Johnsons fights are impressed with his techinical superiorty & advancement over his peers. Especially his defensive skills as his offensive skills were a bit crude.
sugar71 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 01-12-2009, 04:35 AM   #47
PH|LLA
ESB Junkie
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: YUL
Posts: 38,158
vCash: 5685
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by $.02 View Post
In my opinion, this takes away from Joe louis, Who was the first and only real black athlete to pave the way for future black athletes.
PH|LLA is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 04:43 AM   #48
fists of fury
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: March for Revenge
Posts: 5,725
vCash: 1887
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Interesting thread...I agree with the general sentiment of it. Interestingly, Jack Johnson once tried to persuade Joe Louis to fire Jack Blackburn and hire him as his trainer instead.*

*Source: Joe Louis: The Great Black Hope by Richard Bak.
fists of fury is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 07:28 AM   #49
flamengo
Coool as a Cucumber.
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Have removed the 20a87 troll virus 'coz it sux cocks.
Posts: 5,374
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

I believe, at this stage, the semtiments regarding Johnson, and his total disregard of 'authority'/equality/control/standardisation... becomes a considerable view point for others to learn from...
flamengo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 08:36 AM   #50
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Jack Johnson was a brave man, but also a selfish prick.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 08:51 AM   #51
flamengo
Coool as a Cucumber.
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Have removed the 20a87 troll virus 'coz it sux cocks.
Posts: 5,374
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
Jack Johnson was a brave man, but also a selfish prick.
Pontius... for the first time, I believe there may be a similation of agreement between us.....His selfishness is commonly called pravado, in this day and age.
flamengo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 08:54 AM   #52
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,174
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
Jack Johnson was a brave man, but also a selfish prick.
In which way was he a selfish prick? Sure, he made no real efforts (as I know of) to better the situation for others. But very few fighters have. By such standards would for example also Robinson qualify as a selfish, as well as wife beating, prick, wouldn't he?
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 09:45 AM   #53
flamengo
Coool as a Cucumber.
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Have removed the 20a87 troll virus 'coz it sux cocks.
Posts: 5,374
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
In which way was he a selfish prick? Sure, he made no real efforts (as I know of) to better the situation for others. But very few fighters have. By such standards would for example also Robinson qualify as a selfish, as well as wife beating, prick, wouldn't he?
Carlos Monzon might argue that point!!!
flamengo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 10:13 AM   #54
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
In which way was he a selfish prick? Sure, he made no real efforts (as I know of) to better the situation for others. But very few fighters have. By such standards would for example also Robinson qualify as a selfish, as well as wife beating, prick, wouldn't he?
In the sense that he (rightfully) complained about black people being frozen out of the title picture as well as other rights, but once he overcame that, he acted exactly the same and refused to give black fighters, who were much better than the white heavyweights during his reign, a well-earned title shot.

Then there's the bit where he was not only hoping and predicting Joe Louis to lose, but also training his opponents to accomplish that, just so he would be recognized as the only black champion.


Now let me make clear i don't really care about that for him as a boxer (Monzon was a piece of shit, Ali supported a racist cult group, etc etc), but Johnson was a prick. When the subject of paving the way for black athletes comes up, Louis is definitely first. And again, i don't blame Johnson for the attitude he had (it's not his problem that most white people were ****ing retards back then), but Louis did do more for his brothers. A lot more.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 10:16 AM   #55
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 36,368
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

The man was a pioneer. What he did was all but impossible. But he was not an activist. He was not a trailblazer. He was terribly brave.

Some people want to much.

Chris, I think Louis did the heavy lifting, but Tiger Flowers deserves credit for being the first to move black boxers along last century.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 10:28 AM   #56
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,174
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
In the sense that he (rightfully) complained about black people being frozen out of the title picture as well as other rights, but once he overcame that, he acted exactly the same and refused to give black fighters, who were much better than the white heavyweights during his reign, a well-earned title shot.

Then there's the bit where he was not only hoping and predicting Joe Louis to lose, but also training his opponents to accomplish that, just so he would be recognized as the only black champion.


Now let me make clear i don't really care about that for him as a boxer (Monzon was a piece of shit, Ali supported a racist cult group, etc etc), but Johnson was a prick. When the subject of paving the way for black athletes comes up, Louis is definitely first. And again, i don't blame Johnson for the attitude he had (it's not his problem that most white people were ****ing retards back then), but Louis did do more for his brothers. A lot more.
While I don't think the things you mention above qualifies Johnson as a prick (rather as someone looking out for his own interests - as Dempsey, Robinson and many others also did - and being ungenerous to up and coming greats - something you could argue even Louis was too a certain degree) I agree that Louis did more for blacks.

Here are some that truly qualfies as pricks IMO:

Corbett (selfserving, racist sod)
Monzon (murderer)
Robinson (wife beater galore)
Sullivan (racist sod)

And one could also add:

Tyson (a quitter that truly wanted to hurt opponents in the ring and acted as a graceless thug - which he in essence was in many ways -outside of it)

Duran (pretty similar. His antics towards Leonard's wife before their first fight and his quit job in their rematch seems to be a bit hushed down here.)

Johnson never had any of these attributes as far as I know. Rather he was more of a Roy Jones or a James Toney in a time where it required some gigantic marbles to be that.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 12:54 PM   #57
Dempsey1238
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,015
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Johnson is a wife beater.
Dempsey1238 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 01:01 PM   #58
Bokaj
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 7,174
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dempsey1238 View Post
Johnson is a wife beater.
I never heard that before, but if he was then he qualifies for being a prick in my book.
Bokaj is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 01:29 PM   #59
sugar71
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 404
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
I never heard that before, but if he was then he qualifies for being a prick in my book.
Getting into anecdotal stories about prizefighters & their abusiveness is pointless as in the Great Black Hope it is confirmed what Lena Horne has claimed that Joe Louis smacked her around & nearly choked her to unconciousness once. Sugar Ray Leonard admits to cocaine abuse between 1982-87 & there were rumors of him smacking around Juanita before they split.

We can fruitlessly go on for days about the shameful behavior of athletes, politicians,actors,etc.... It will get us nowhere. Essentially good men sometimes do shameful things.
sugar71 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2009, 01:55 PM   #60
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Chris, I think Louis did the heavy lifting, but Tiger Flowers deserves credit for being the first to move black boxers along last century.
Unfortunately i don't know much about Flowers and what he did for his fellow black man. Could you summarize?


One thing to note is that Louis was heavyweight champion of the world. Everyone knew him, so he was able to do more good while maybe Flowers had equally good or better intentions, but comparatively lacked the power to do so.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokaj View Post
While I don't think the things you mention above qualifies Johnson as a prick (rather as someone looking out for his own interests - as Dempsey, Robinson and many others also did - and being ungenerous to up and coming greats - something you could argue even Louis was too a certain degree) I agree that Louis did more for blacks.

Here are some that truly qualfies as pricks IMO:

Corbett (selfserving, racist sod)
Monzon (murderer)
Robinson (wife beater galore)
Sullivan (racist sod)

And one could also add:

Tyson (a quitter that truly wanted to hurt opponents in the ring and acted as a graceless thug - which he in essence was in many ways -outside of it)

Duran (pretty similar. His antics towards Leonard's wife before their first fight and his quit job in their rematch seems to be a bit hushed down here.)

Johnson never had any of these attributes as far as I know. Rather he was more of a Roy Jones or a James Toney in a time where it required some gigantic marbles to be that.
Maybe i was a bit harsh in calling him a prick, but selfish he was. Of course that's not a death sin and he didn't owe it to ANYBODY to not rebel against the shit treatment he had always gotten, nor did he have an obligation to help the situation .... after all, it's not his fault that racism was on such a bad level back then.

But be that as it may, Joe Louis sacrificed himself by not doing what he wanted to and probably felt like doing, but instead helped the black race. That takes incredible willpower and courage. He developed an introvert kind of charisma which made many white people realize that a "n*gger" is human too. That's i think he's a hero, on top of a great fighter and a gutsy man, the latter two of which Johnson also is.

And anyone calling him an uncle tom for helping his race is just as stupid as believing the uncle tom crap that Ali pulled on Frazier.

Last edited by ChrisPontius; 01-12-2009 at 03:10 PM.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013