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Old 01-12-2009, 02:23 PM   #61
sugar71
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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The man was a pioneer. What he did was all but impossible. But he was not an activist. He was not a trailblazer. He was terribly brave.

Some people want to much.

Chris, I think Louis did the heavy lifting, but Tiger Flowers deserves credit for being the first to move black boxers along last century.
Yes the man was not a civil rights activist he was a Prizefighter/Sport, but he showed Blacks that they did not have to be subservient to anyone & were inferior to no one.

I disagree however that Joe Louis somehow did "the heavy lifting' as he lived in a completely different & less openly violent hostile era as did Jack Johnson. Up until 1908(the year Jackson won the belt) there were actual POSTCARD photos of the actual corpses of burned, hanged, & mangled Black Lynching victims legally circulated through the US mail. Until the new Postmaster general became embarrassed/sickened & banned the practice that year .Between 1880 & 1923 nearly 3000 of the 3500 Blacks lycnhed in the US were perpertrated ,including some when Jackson beat Jefferies/Burns. JACK Johnson came along at the very low point (reconstruction to WWI) of Black American existence in America & no historian would dispute this.

During Jack Johnsons' era Blacks were lynched at the rate of 75-100 PEOPLE per year & a rapid decline had begun in the early 1920's to less than hadful (10) per year way before Joe louis ever came along . It shows that although still hostile the atmosphere of Joe Louis'/Ali eras' it was nothing compared to what Jack Johnson ecountered.

Joe Louis was asked to nothing more than most Blacks had learned decades/centuries before in order to survive: Be completely docile/subservient to Whites outside of the ring, never smile when he beats a White man, never be see with publicly a White woman, never speak out against anything,etc...Let his fists do the talking This was actually more of a backward way of looking at race relations as Blacks had learned all of this stuff years before. Ali would have call that type of behavior 'Tomming' up to Whites if he were ever asked to do the same. Ali was in awe of Johson as he knew the danger Jack Johson was inviting with his boldness which Ali called 'crazy'.

To say Louis did the heavy lifting would be the equivalent of saying that Barack Obama has done the heavy lifting when it comes to Black American struggle for equality. Ex slave Fredrick Douglass, Marcus Garvey, W.E.B. DuBois, Ida Wells Barnett, Malcom X ,etc.. along with the thousands who lost therir lives in the Civil Rights struggle like Medgar Evers,Vernon Dahmer, MLK,etc... would disagree.

Jack Johnson was "the" trailblazer & suffered accordingly. Period.
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Old 01-12-2009, 02:48 PM   #62
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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Maybe i was a bit harsh in calling him a prick, but selfish he was. Of course that's not a death sin and he didn't owe it to ANYBODY to not rebel against the shit treatment he had always gotten, nor did he have an obligation to help the situation .... after all, it's not his fault that racism was on such a bad level back then.

But be that as it may, Joe Louis sacrificed himself by not doing what he wanted to and probably felt like doing, but instead helped the black race. That takes incredible willpower and courage. He developed an introvert kind of charisma which made many white people realize that a n*gger is human too. That's i think he's a hero, on top of a great fighter and a gutsy man, the latter two of which Johnson also is.

And anyone calling him an uncle tom for helping his race is just as stupid as believing the uncle tom crap that Ali pulled on Frazier.
This all seems fair enough.
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:01 PM   #63
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Pontius... Bokaj.... others... Its seems a shame to me, that Louis was basically limited verballly in an expressive manner. Not personally handicapped.. just walking a tight-rope.. satisfying the ignorance he was surrounded by. Im not sure about the 'Uncle Tom' claim........ although, its not very hard to see a likely scenario. The memories of 30 years prior, must have been ringing the ears of America.

Johnson proved a point... Louis punctuated that point.

Shameful the grammar was not recieved a century before.
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Old 01-12-2009, 03:19 PM   #64
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

you needed a johnson and you needed a louis

a carrot and a stick to the silent white majority.
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Old 01-12-2009, 10:23 PM   #65
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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In the sense that he (rightfully) complained about black people being frozen out of the title picture as well as other rights, but once he overcame that, he acted exactly the same and refused to give black fighters, who were much better than the white heavyweights during his reign, a well-earned title shot.

Then there's the bit where he was not only hoping and predicting Joe Louis to lose, but also training his opponents to accomplish that, just so he would be recognized as the only black champion.


Now let me make clear i don't really care about that for him as a boxer (Monzon was a piece of shit, Ali supported a racist cult group, etc etc), but Johnson was a prick. When the subject of paving the way for black athletes comes up, Louis is definitely first. And again, i don't blame Johnson for the attitude he had (it's not his problem that most white people were ****ing retards back then), but Louis did do more for his brothers. A lot more.

Louis refused during the war to do an exibition unless the black soldiers were allowed....He carried himself like a man fighting the best of his era....Johnson was a selfish prick...he was for Johnson not the black race...he insulted black woman by adoring white woman., he never gave a black fighter the chance to make a payday or black fans the chance to see a black/black fight for the title...Louis was a class act Johnson was as Chris says a selfish prick, Thanks chris....you spelled it out pretty good
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Old 01-12-2009, 10:32 PM   #66
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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Pontius... Bokaj.... others... Its seems a shame to me, that Louis was basically limited verballly in an expressive manner. Not personally handicapped.. just walking a tight-rope.. satisfying the ignorance he was surrounded by. Im not sure about the 'Uncle Tom' claim........ although, its not very hard to see a likely scenario. The memories of 30 years prior, must have been ringing the ears of America.

Johnson proved a point... Louis punctuated that point.

Shameful the grammar was not recieved a century before.
Louis was a very wise man and a lot of his sayings were the greatest in boxing and full of substance

He can run but he cant hide.........We are going to win this war because we are on GODs side........Everybody wants to go heaven, but nobody wants to die.”....“Once that bell rings you're on your own. It's just you and the other guy.”... [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]“[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]”...Iplay in the low 80's. If it's any hotter than that, I won't play.......
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Old 01-13-2009, 07:34 AM   #67
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Many actually felt this way after his reign they felt he had pushed them back which is why so many didn't get title shots especially Wills over fear of what another black heavyweight champ would do. Archie Moore agreed with your statement he said something like we suffered for year because of him. I can't remember the exact quote but you get what he was talking about.
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Old 01-13-2009, 07:46 AM   #68
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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Many actually felt this way after his reign they felt he had pushed them back which is why so many didn't get title shots especially Wills over fear of what another black heavyweight champ would do. Archie Moore agreed with your statement he said something like we suffered for year because of him. I can't remember the exact quote but you get what he was talking about.
Minotauro.... the blame rests on the idiotic public (social attitudes) of the day. Not the fighters. I see the travesty, supremic attitudes and demoralising actions against coloured fighters of the time, yet, admire Johnson for his stance... regardless of the repercutions he recieved. Cassius Clay was administered with the same second rate categorisations.. ?? Go figure!! Cheers mate.

Have a peek in Oz forum... wrote a short piece regarding the same .. "the invasion of......."
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:05 AM   #69
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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Minotauro.... the blame rests on the idiotic public (social attitudes) of the day. Not the fighters. I see the travesty, supremic attitudes and demoralising actions against coloured fighters of the time, yet, admire Johnson for his stance... regardless of the repercutions he recieved. Cassius Clay was administered with the same second rate categorisations.. ?? Go figure!! Cheers mate.

Have a peek in Oz forum... wrote a short piece regarding the same .. "the invasion of......."
Very nicely put.
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:21 AM   #70
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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....Johnson was a selfish prick...he was for Johnson not the black race...
Ok, tell me what great causes you've championed in your day instead of looking after your own interests. Or are you a selfish prick as well?

Quote:
he insulted black woman by adoring white woman
For fukks sake! I happen to like hispanic women, is that an insult to Swedish females?

You must really have liked Ali when he spewed all that racist nonsense about that blacks shouldn't have *** with whites. He even turned down big money (when he really needed them) to play Johnson in a movie, just because Jack ran around with white women.


Quote:
., he never gave a black fighter the chance to make a payday or black fans the chance to see a black/black fight for the title
Robinson didn't either. Holmes denied several worthy challengers their shot, and let's not get into Dempsey, Tunney etc.

The difference is that Johnson at least fought, and beat, Langford. McVea et. al. before he became champ.


Quote:
...Louis was a class act Johnson was as Chris says a selfish prick, Thanks chris....you spelled it out pretty good
I must say this qualifies as one of the dumbest posts I read for a while.
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:15 AM   #71
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Bokaj, tell me what things Johnson did to NOT be called selfish? Training guys to beat a black up-and-comer so you can be the only black champion is more than looking out for your interests, it's very selfish and borderline ego-obsessive. In the meanwhile, Joe Louis was donating money to the army in WWII.
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:45 AM   #72
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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Bokaj, tell me what things Johnson did to NOT be called selfish? Training guys to beat a black up-and-comer so you can be the only black champion is more than looking out for your interests, it's very selfish and borderline ego-obsessive. In the meanwhile, Joe Louis was donating money to the army in WWII.
Is there really enough information to infer that he did it for this reason? He did want to train Louis to begin with, after all, and I suppose that his aim for that was to try and help Louis become champion.

But I don't doubt for a second that Johnson had a great, big ego, and that said ego probably could make him act in a small minded fashion at times. I don't think he's a stand out here, though. Louis wasn't overly generous in giving Ali his due (even though he wasn't vindictive in any way), and picked many of Ali's opponents to beat him. In a way I think a former great should be a bit grudging against a future great, until the greatness is proved beyond doubt.

I'm not in any way arguing that Johnson was a boy scout, because he surely wasn't. But he seems, for some reason, to be held to higher standards than others. As already stated, Robinson wasn't really generous to fellow blacks like Burley and Cocoa Kid, and Holmes was also cynical in the choice of opponents. And that's one guy who doesn't want to give anyone his due.

Dempsey blatantly ducked Wills, and hid behind his manager in doing so. Tunney also used the race line with abandon, not too speak of Sullivan and Corbett.

The bottom line is, if we're going to blame Johnson for not giving the chance to guys he'd already beaten, then very few go safe. And why anyone would hold his fraternizing with white women against him is beyond me.
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:24 AM   #73
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Pontius... take several steps back.... take your head from your butt.. TELL US WHAT JOHNSON DID THAT WAS SELFISH!!!!! Remember, moron, he was the single most infuriating charactor in the history of the game. Only for the sake of being proud, ****y, brashish, a non-conformist and unwilling to be dictated to.

Do you think Johnson, in that era, should be a "yes, sir boss...sir" kind of man??? I'd hope not. Was the door open for Johnson to fight McVea, Janette, Langford via the legitimate avenues in America?????? NO!!! The "White Hope" generation was inplace.. Unless johnson ventured back to Australia, there was no chance of another coloured fighter attempting to claim the H/W Championship.

Harry Wills is a fine example of the pitiful, negligent attitudes... Tunney, in many minds is an esteemed H/W... only for the sake of Wills being deprived the opportunity.
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:02 PM   #74
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

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Is there really enough information to infer that he did it for this reason? He did want to train Louis to begin with, after all, and I suppose that his aim for that was to try and help Louis become champion.

But I don't doubt for a second that Johnson had a great, big ego, and that said ego probably could make him act in a small minded fashion at times. I don't think he's a stand out here, though. Louis wasn't overly generous in giving Ali his due (even though he wasn't vindictive in any way), and picked many of Ali's opponents to beat him. In a way I think a former great should be a bit grudging against a future great, until the greatness is proved beyond doubt.

I'm not in any way arguing that Johnson was a boy scout, because he surely wasn't. But he seems, for some reason, to be held to higher standards than others. As already stated, Robinson wasn't really generous to fellow blacks like Burley and Cocoa Kid, and Holmes was also cynical in the choice of opponents. And that's one guy who doesn't want to give anyone his due.

Dempsey blatantly ducked Wills, and hid behind his manager in doing so. Tunney also used the race line with abandon, not too speak of Sullivan and Corbett.

The bottom line is, if we're going to blame Johnson for not giving the chance to guys he'd already beaten, then very few go safe. And why anyone would hold his fraternizing with white women against him is beyond me.

The likes of Holmes and Dempsey rightfully get criticized for ducking the best opponents around. And rightfully so.

It isn't JUST about the fact that Johnson wanted to be the only black champion, it's about everything he did. Pretty much everything that i read about him, was self-serving.



Quote:
Originally Posted by flamengo View Post
Pontius... take several steps back.... take your head from your butt.. TELL US WHAT JOHNSON DID THAT WAS SELFISH!!!!! Remember, moron, he was the single most infuriating charactor in the history of the game. Only for the sake of being proud, ****y, brashish, a non-conformist and unwilling to be dictated to.

Do you think Johnson, in that era, should be a "yes, sir boss...sir" kind of man??? I'd hope not. Was the door open for Johnson to fight McVea, Janette, Langford via the legitimate avenues in America?????? NO!!! The "White Hope" generation was inplace.. Unless johnson ventured back to Australia, there was no chance of another coloured fighter attempting to claim the H/W Championship.

Harry Wills is a fine example of the pitiful, negligent attitudes... Tunney, in many minds is an esteemed H/W... only for the sake of Wills being deprived the opportunity.
Johnson had the opportunity to open the door for other black fighters to a world champion stage, and at the same time, defending his title against the best fighters out there instead of those white jokes.

You say:

Quote:
Originally Posted by flamengo

Remember, moron, he was the single most infuriating charactor in the history of the game. Only for the sake of being proud, ****y, brashish, a non-conformist and unwilling to be dictated to
And you want to tell me those are NOT selfish properties for a man to have?
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:48 PM   #75
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Default Re: Jack Johnson DID NOTHING for Black athletes.!

Empty head... He was the fisrt coloured fighter to throw shit into the face of Americans. The first coloured fighter to recieve the status of H/W Champion of the world...... and the fortune that goes with it..... In Johnsons case, that fortune carried a wealth of rascism, disenchanted egotism, ignoreance, pathetic red tape and........ evidently, credit for his valuable style, know how, exploitive distaste for conformists and a complete regard for his own ability.

Please specify the opportunities Johnson had to challenge a coloured fighter for 'his' crown in the States...... Promoters, Challengers, and states to be in view.....

You, Pontius, may be sitting on your boyfriends balcony again..... with a very homo-***ual look on your (very punchable) face, yet... in your retort, another laugh is assured.
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