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Old 08-15-2007, 03:22 AM   #1
fists of fury
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Default Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

The rematch with Max Schmeling has long been regarded by many to be Louis' finest hour.
But, what if the fight had been held on neutral territory or, heaven forbid, in Nazi Germany? Would it have been a different outcome? Could Max have at least done a lot better?

What I have never seen in an analysis of this fight was an explanation as to why Schmeling was seemingly so poor in that fight. The overwhelming consensus is that Schmeling wasn't bad on the night, Joe was just that good.
There is no doubt that Louis was fired up for the rematch, possibly more so than in any other fight of his career. He actually didn't even really regard himself as champion until he beat Schmeling.

However, can we honestly deny the massive psychological impact a loud and extremely hostile crowd may have had on Schmeling? He was pelted with objects walking towards the ring, and of course the press did their best to cast Max in the worst light possible.
The anti-Schmeling and anti-Nazi sentiment by fight time was overwhelming, and I don't think we always have a firm grasp sometimes of how bad things actually were for Schmeling at that time.

We must also consider that Max's spouse was basically being held hostage by the Nazi's to ensure his return to Germany. Can you imagine that?
Not only was there very strong anti-Nazi sentiment in the very place he was to fight, but there was enormous pressure on Schmeling from the Nazi regime back home to win.
I don't think it was very wise to piss off Hitler those days, do you?

All things considered, can we really believe Schmeling, despite holding a victory over Louis already, was in tip-top shape for the fight mentally? How can a fighter hope to be in a calm frame of mind in those circumstances? Is it not possible that the magnitude of the occasion and the extremely hostile recepton he got simply got to him, and he froze? Remember, he was fighting in Louis' back yard.

What do you guys think?
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Old 08-15-2007, 08:19 AM   #2
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Default Re: Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

No, he was not in perfect fighting mentality for the second Louis bout. But I honestly think that even if he was, he'd have lost anyway by KO somewhere 5 or less, don't think it would have been round 1 though.

Louis was almost possessed by a demon that night, awful for whoever was his opponent...

I'll make another note, I wish fighters would be fired up like that for every event, I would.
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Old 08-15-2007, 09:29 AM   #3
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Default Re: Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

It might not have made much diference either way.

Louis's plan was always to go after Schmeling early which was where he had his most sucess in the previous fight. Regardless of what Schmeling did he was going to try to mug him in the first round.

He had also done a lot of work practicing to avoid overhand rights so he would be less vulnerable coming in.

I somtimes think that he found Schmelings number in the second fight just as Schmeling had found his in the first.
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Old 08-15-2007, 10:03 AM   #4
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Default Re: Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

Although I think a peak Louis would have beaten Schmeling at any phase of Max's career, I think it fair to assume that he may have deteriorated a bit by the rematch.
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Old 08-15-2007, 10:05 AM   #5
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Default Re: Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Although I think a peak Louis would have beaten Schmeling at any phase of Max's career, I think it fair to assume that he may have deteriorated a bit by the rematch.
Why to play devils advocate?

What in his last fight or indeed his next fight suggests that he was slipping.
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Old 08-15-2007, 10:11 AM   #6
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Default Re: Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Why to play devils advocate?

What in his last fight or indeed his next fight suggests that he was slipping.
Truthfully, I have no varification to prove it. It's just a guess, given that their was such a drastic difference in performance, going from dominating Louis, to get getting beaten in a single round. Schmeling was either 31 or 32 years old in the rematch, whereas Louis was 25 or so. It would also be one of that last matches that Schmeling would have for a decade. Weather he was past it or not, I'd still pick a 1938 Louis to beat Schmeling at any stage of his career regardless.
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Old 08-15-2007, 12:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
The rematch with Max Schmeling has long been regarded by many to be Louis' finest hour.
But, what if the fight had been held on neutral territory or, heaven forbid, in Nazi Germany? Would it have been a different outcome? Could Max have at least done a lot better?

What I have never seen in an analysis of this fight was an explanation as to why Schmeling was seemingly so poor in that fight. The overwhelming consensus is that Schmeling wasn't bad on the night, Joe was just that good.
There is no doubt that Louis was fired up for the rematch, possibly more so than in any other fight of his career. He actually didn't even really regard himself as champion until he beat Schmeling.

However, can we honestly deny the massive psychological impact a loud and extremely hostile crowd may have had on Schmeling? He was pelted with objects walking towards the ring, and of course the press did their best to cast Max in the worst light possible.
The anti-Schmeling and anti-Nazi sentiment by fight time was overwhelming, and I don't think we always have a firm grasp sometimes of how bad things actually were for Schmeling at that time.

We must also consider that Max's spouse was basically being held hostage by the Nazi's to ensure his return to Germany. Can you imagine that?
Not only was there very strong anti-Nazi sentiment in the very place he was to fight, but there was enormous pressure on Schmeling from the Nazi regime back home to win.
I don't think it was very wise to piss off Hitler those days, do you?

All things considered, can we really believe Schmeling, despite holding a victory over Louis already, was in tip-top shape for the fight mentally? How can a fighter hope to be in a calm frame of mind in those circumstances? Is it not possible that the magnitude of the occasion and the extremely hostile recepton he got simply got to him, and he froze? Remember, he was fighting in Louis' back yard.

What do you guys think?
Max was allready past his best when he fought Joe the first time ,overconfidence on Louis,s part,[he had destroyed Baer,who had kod Max],too much time on the golf course,and a refusal to listen to Blackburn all added to the pot,plus Schmeling had spotted that Louis didnt bring his left back all the way after jabbing ,giving him the perfect opening for his power punch the right,Louis trained diligently for the return,there would be no more ****iness of lax training,in spite of Louis,s faults in the first fight ,it still took Max 12 rounds to finish him, and his own eye was closed by Louis,sjabs,a pumped up ready Louis would probably have stopped Schmeling in the late rounds of the first fight,in retrospect it wasnt the fact that he kod Max in the return,but that he did it so convincingly.
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Old 08-15-2007, 12:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Max was allready past his best when he fought Joe the first time
Debatable.

Schmeling himself said that he sliped a little after the Walker fight due to inactivity but that he recovered his previous form around the second Uzcdun fight.
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Old 08-15-2007, 05:14 PM   #9
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Default Re: Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
Debatable.

Schmeling himself said that he sliped a little after the Walker fight due to inactivity but that he recovered his previous form around the second Uzcdun fight.
Schmeling had 6 fights after losing the title to Sharkey,he won 3 ,lost 2 and 1 was a draw,against Uzcudun,1 of the wins was over walker,a middleweight,1 over Hamas,,and 1 over a young Neusel,he had been badly kod by Baer in 10,he was 31 when he met Louis,I think its reasonable to say his prime was behind him.
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Old 08-15-2007, 07:23 PM   #10
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Default Re: Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Schmeling had 6 fights after losing the title to Sharkey,he won 3 ,lost 2 and 1 was a draw,against Uzcudun,1 of the wins was over walker,a middleweight,1 over Hamas,,and 1 over a young Neusel,he had been badly kod by Baer in 10,he was 31 when he met Louis,I think its reasonable to say his prime was behind him.
The draw against Uzcdun was a nonsense hometown decision so it should read won 4 and lost 2 against Baer and Hamas. And if we take his run between (ahem) loosing the title to Sharkey and the second Louis fight it is 8-2-1 or more acurately 9-2-0.

There is no shame in loosing to fighters like Baer and Hamas. They were the best at the time and the kind of fighters who the best of the era could logicaly loose to even at their peak. Baer and Sharkey for example both have peak losses to fighters of a similar calibre or less.

In short I see no reason why he should necisarily have been past his prime.
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Old 08-15-2007, 07:38 PM   #11
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Default Re: Louis v Schmeling 2 revisited

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
The draw against Uzcdun was a nonsense hometown decision so it should read won 4 and lost 2 against Baer and Hamas. And if we take his run between (ahem) loosing the title to Sharkey and the second Louis fight it is 8-2-1 or more acurately 9-2-0.

There is no shame in loosing to fighters like Baer and Hamas. They were the best at the time and the kind of fighters who the best of the era could logicaly loose to even at their peak. Baer and Sharkey for example both have peak losses to fighters of a similar calibre or less.

In short I see no reason why he should necisarily have been past his prime.
Yes you do , I have told you he was ,that should be enough for you.
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