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Old 06-26-2007, 08:22 AM   #1
quintonjacksonfan
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Default A couple questions about Duran

How long did it take him to get his reputation back after Leonard 2

Also would his all-time P4P ranking been lower or higher if Leonard won a

15 round decision instead of him Quitting
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:32 AM   #2
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

In terms of his reputation I don't think that ever quite recovered. The stigma of quiting seems to have tarnished his legacy for most fans I've spoken to. Personally I say, who are others to judge him, he showed his guts and determination time and time again. I think his legacy would have been slightly better had he took the beating instead of quiting though.
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:33 AM   #3
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

Duran regained prestige when he beat Davey Moore way after the Leonard fight. A very nice effort vs Hagler cemented his regained stature before the quickie KO loss to Hearns took him back down. He then, well later, beat Barkley for the 160 title and was reborn again for a short time.
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Old 06-26-2007, 01:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

Like Frazier with Ali, Duran won the initial meeting, the one which counted most of the three. While I don't think Duran's reputation ever completely recovered from Montreal, his P4P status was enhanced by his performance against Hagler, and his longevity in defeating Barkely set him apart from many of his ATG opponents.

Duran's number two on my all-time P4P list. To have a chance at displacing SRR on top, he would have needed to win in New Orleans, decision Hagler (as he would have done had it been a 12 rounder), and kayo Hearns (as I expected he would do with his body attack).

If SRL had forced a stoppage in New Orleans, Duran may have slid in my view. Losing a decision wouldn't have affected my opinion about him, as he'd already beaten Ray, and was older and smaller.

He'll always be tainted with quitting after a guaranteed eight million dollar payoff, especially since so many boxers and fans of the sport are impoverished. It's sort of like Baer clowning away the title during the depths of the Great Depression.
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Old 06-26-2007, 04:21 PM   #5
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

Interesting, Duo. Had Duran beat Leonard in the return, then went on to beat Hagler and Hearns he would take the #1 spot. I heartily agree but now that fantasy time is over, isn't that asking too much of any mortal?

Let's explore something:

if Duran stepped up from the LWs in the mid sixties and fought in '67-69 against Curtis Cokes at WW and then stepped up to beat Freddie Little at Jr. Middle, and Benvenuti at MW, would he be touted as greater than SRR? Should he be?
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Old 06-26-2007, 04:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

The second Leonard fight, help clarify Duran's career development.

Like some other greats, his greatness was mainly due to redemption.

My point; Ali in stage one of his career was unbeatable, he was brilliant. But stage two saw him comeback from a lay off and suffer defeats... But stage three was redemption when Ali showed despite being a mere shadow (in natrual abilty terms) of himself, he found a way to win the Heavyweight Championship from a precieved monster, and then hoild on to it for another four years in a very strong era.

Robinson was similar; great pre 1952; not so good post 1955, but still good enough to win the Middleweight Championship four more times.

Duran was the same; awesome from 72 though to LeonardI; then came the rematch and losses to Laing and Benitez, but redemption though Cuevas, Moore and Hagler; and then nearly six years later again he comes out of the wilderness to give us one final magic moment when he shows glimpses of prime Duran to edge out Barkley and finally redeem himself from the horrors of November 25th 1980.
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Old 06-26-2007, 06:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Interesting, Duo. Had Duran beat Leonard in the return, then went on to beat Hagler and Hearns he would take the #1 spot. I heartily agree but now that fantasy time is over, isn't that asking too much of any mortal?

Let's explore something:

if Duran stepped up from the LWs in the mid sixties and fought in '67-69 against Curtis Cokes at WW and then stepped up to beat Freddie Little at Jr. Middle, and Benvenuti at MW, would he be touted as greater than SRR? Should he be?
Wow, good question! Naturally, this brings to mind the fact that Henry Armstrong went from Featherweight Champion, to drawing for the MW Title against an opponent he'd previously defeated in defending the WW Title. (Imagine Danny Lopez drawing with Carlos Monzon for the MW Title, after first decisioning Monzon in a previous encounter.) I think much of SRR's P4P reputation is rooted in Armstrong's gushing praise of Robby after their 1943 ten rounder. (Just think. Robby went from WW II to Vietnam. Duran went from Vietnam to the brink of 9/11, and was only stopped by a car accident.)

I believe that what Duran actually achieved in his career was, in fact, too much to ask of any mortal. What he did against Hagler surpassed a victory over Nino, regardless of the scorecard verdict. What happened in New Orleans should have destroyed him. Cuevas never recovered from the devastating beating Hearns subjected him to. Yet, when Duran met a similar fate at Tommy's hands, he came back, yet again, against Hearn's former and future conquerer, Barkley.

Duran went from Arguello's conquerer at featherweight, Marcel, to Barkley. He avenged late career losses to current winning cruiserweight Jorge Castro, and was pushing 50 when he avenged his earlier defeat to Pat Lawler. He showed Paz what the canvas looked like, for the first time in Vinnie's career. Joppy was the last of his opponents to stop him, when Roberto was already 47 years old, and had been boxing professionally for over 30 years. The next three boxers to defeat Joppy were Tito, B-Hop, and Bad Intentions.

It's only because SRR was never stopped by an opponent's fists that I consider him a clear number one over Duran. In the area of longevity, Duran did kick Robby's ass, by a good five years.

Could Duran have potentially surpassed Robinson? Yes. If Duran didn't have a weakness for gastronomic delights, if he'd always remained the "Duranimal," who in Ray Arcel's words, "would rather fight than eat," and hadn't been in a career ending car crash five years ago, he would still be boxing and winning today. Robby and Pep were reputedly not that enamoured with the fight game, but Duran loved to fight, and remained on top until after his love of fighting was surpassed by his love of eating. (This was a guy who actually seemed to enjoy getting hit, and freaking out his adversaries when nothing happened. The wolfish sneer he had on his face right before Hearns put him out was utterly maniacal.)

At junior welterweight, I wouldn't put money on the outcome between a peak SRR, and a peak Duran, with both in top condition. (I believe Robby might have pulled out a razor thin points win, with his reach and movement, but once again, I wouldn't bet one thin dime on that outcome.)
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Old 06-27-2007, 02:22 AM   #8
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
While I don't think Duran's reputation ever completely recovered from Montreal, his P4P status was enhanced by his performance against Hagler, and his longevity in defeating Barkely set him apart from many of his ATG opponents.

.

Montreal was his finest hour. I think you mean Duran-Leonard (2).

Complete redemption came with his defeat of Barkley.
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Old 06-27-2007, 06:50 AM   #9
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuchulain
Montreal was his finest hour. I think you mean Duran-Leonard (2).

Complete redemption came with his defeat of Barkley.
My slip-up. (Warning-I frequently suffer from brain farts that cause me to reverse things! This was one of those stupid blind spot mistakes I often fall prey to. Thanks for picking up on it.)
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Old 06-27-2007, 04:24 PM   #10
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
Wow, good question! Naturally, this brings to mind the fact that Henry Armstrong went from Featherweight Champion, to drawing for the MW Title against an opponent he'd previously defeated in defending the WW Title. (Imagine Danny Lopez drawing with Carlos Monzon for the MW Title, after first decisioning Monzon in a previous encounter.) I think much of SRR's P4P reputation is rooted in Armstrong's gushing praise of Robby after their 1943 ten rounder. (Just think. Robby went from WW II to Vietnam. Duran went from Vietnam to the brink of 9/11, and was only stopped by a car accident.)

I believe that what Duran actually achieved in his career was, in fact, too much to ask of any mortal. What he did against Hagler surpassed a victory over Nino, regardless of the scorecard verdict. What happened in New Orleans should have destroyed him. Cuevas never recovered from the devastating beating Hearns subjected him to. Yet, when Duran met a similar fate at Tommy's hands, he came back, yet again, against Hearn's former and future conquerer, Barkley.

Duran went from Arguello's conquerer at featherweight, Marcel, to Barkley. He avenged late career losses to current winning cruiserweight Jorge Castro, and was pushing 50 when he avenged his earlier defeat to Pat Lawler. He showed Paz what the canvas looked like, for the first time in Vinnie's career. Joppy was the last of his opponents to stop him, when Roberto was already 47 years old, and had been boxing professionally for over 30 years. The next three boxers to defeat Joppy were Tito, B-Hop, and Bad Intentions.

It's only because SRR was never stopped by an opponent's fists that I consider him a clear number one over Duran. In the area of longevity, Duran did kick Robby's ass, by a good five years.

Could Duran have potentially surpassed Robinson? Yes. If Duran didn't have a weakness for gastronomic delights, if he'd always remained the "Duranimal," who in Ray Arcel's words, "would rather fight than eat," and hadn't been in a career ending car crash five years ago, he would still be boxing and winning today. Robby and Pep were reputedly not that enamoured with the fight game, but Duran loved to fight, and remained on top until after his love of fighting was surpassed by his love of eating. (This was a guy who actually seemed to enjoy getting hit, and freaking out his adversaries when nothing happened. The wolfish sneer he had on his face right before Hearns put him out was utterly maniacal.)

At junior welterweight, I wouldn't put money on the outcome between a peak SRR, and a peak Duran, with both in top condition. (I believe Robby might have pulled out a razor thin points win, with his reach and movement, but once again, I wouldn't bet one thin dime on that outcome.)
Excellent read. For what it's worth, you have recently assumed a place among those posters that I always read.

Duran was a savage whose savagery was harnessed by Brown and to a lesser extent, Ray ARcel. The influence of these two should not be underestimated. Had they never come into the picture, Duran would have been an earlier version of Tony Ayala -a murderous, though one-dimensional, brawler. Buchanan & DeJesus would have beaten him; and Palomino would have as well. Leonard would have taken him apart.

Brown and Arcel were like Greek Philosophers who took an early Roman wolf-child and made him Trajan (in terms of expanding conquests) or Augustus (in terms of longevity -which is always rooted in skill).

I remember reading "Battle of the LEgends" in Ring many years ago and the judges' panel had Duran losing too damn much. All of the naysayers don't see clearly when it comes to Duran and it is his own fault to some extent. Duran showed mortality at his 70th fight. Leonard had 40 fights total. Ali had what? 60 total?

Had Duran whipped Leonard and was politically savvy enough to deny the rematch indefinitely and then whip Cuevas, Moore, and then challenge Hagler and waited a year to get inspired enough to give Hearns more, he would have been celebrated forevermore. What hurt him was all of the times that he came in like a lazy bum. But let us not forget that he was doing this long after his prime and many pounds away from his natural division!! Can anyone see Barney Ross or Pernell Whitaker fighting 15 rounds in the perimeter against Hagler? Hell no.

But then you have to think about who Duran is. His psychology was such that he had to have something primal motivating him. Without No Mas, he would have had no ashes to rise from. Without death, there is no phoenix rising. Without the Hearns KO, what satisfaction would there have been in fighting and beating Hearns' conquerer in Barkley?

Duran was such that he was never going to be a workman like Hagler or Hopkins. He was the quintessential passion fighter. I think that after the fires of youth tempered and that testosterone depleted, he had to find fire to inject. It is probably no coincidence that Duran's inconsistency began with a vengeance almost from the moment of his 30th birthday.

Arcel once warned Brown about 'changing' Duran. He knew that Duran was a phenomena whose essential assets should not be tampered with. We as historians and analysts should remember that warning. Duran was Duran and even his glaring faults were flip sides -necessary evils-of the unique greatness that was the Hands of Stone.
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Old 06-27-2007, 07:23 PM   #11
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

I don't think that Duran ever sought redemption for New Orleans....he got it though, when he defeated Barkley. After New Orleans, Duran seemed to lose interest in the sport for a while, and although he didn't officially take a break from the ring, he wasn't actually trying to accomplish anything. Then Duran got some motivation back, and defeated Cuevas and Moore, and had the impressive effort against Hagler. After the loss to Hagler, Duran again lost interest in the sport, until he pulled off the unlikely and extremely impressive win over Barkley....then some people began forgetting about New Orleans.

For what it's worth though, Duran was probably the best lightweight ever....and everything after that, including the win over Leonard, is just bonus material.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintonjacksonfan View Post
How long did it take him to get his reputation back after Leonard 2

Also would his all-time P4P ranking been lower or higher if Leonard won a

15 round decision instead of him Quitting
1) A couple of years, but the stigma is minorly still there.
2) probably a couple of pounds higher.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: A couple questions about Duran

It will be always remembered but for me, I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I was always a big fan of his. I think sometimes fighters are remembered for their worst nights rather than all their better ones put together.
I'd say the Cuevas fight brought him back some respect and then the Moore fight consolidated it.
As for his greatest night, he had plenty!
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