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Old 06-22-2007, 04:27 PM   #1
UpWithEvil
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Default If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

I was going to reply to another poster in the "Top 10" thread, but I thought this topic was significant enough to warrant its own thread.

Evander Holyfield has had an impressive heavyweight career and certainly has to be ranked among the elite heavyweight of his generation.

However, there is very little doubt that Evander Holyfield has used "steroids" (and to save time, by "steroids" I mean a catchall term for various anabolic agents and trophic hormones, and exclude corticosteroids) during his career. Because boxing, like professional baseball, was largely ignorant of the extent of steroid use during the 90s, Holyfield received little scrutinty to this effect during his heavyweight prime and was only caught with his hand in the juice jar in recent years.

For those of you who rank Holyfield hightly on an all-time heavyweight basis, does his use of steroids affect your placement? If irrefutable evidence came to light proving that Holyfield had been abusing steroids since he made the leap to the heavyweight ranks in the early-90s (and thus was "on steroids" for all of his heavyweight bouts) would that disqualify him from your rankings?
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

This is such a horrible question.

The guy still goes in and puts it all on the line. He still has to beat the best in the division.

But I think yes, it would affect my rankings. Also, it would be almost impossible to quantify degrees to which his rating would be damaged. So i'd probably just lift him out of my ratings alltogether. I have him at #8 just now.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:34 PM   #3
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UpWithEvil

However, there is very little doubt that Evander Holyfield has used "steroids" (and to save time, by "steroids" I mean a catchall term for various anabolic agents and trophic hormones, and exclude corticosteroids) during his career.
Morally UpWithEvil, you may think that; I could not possibly comment...

Legally Evander unlike Toney has not, to my knowledge failed a test...

I may not be up with it, but I see no Evil, I here no Evil , thus Holyfield does not suffer a negative reaction in my book.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:43 PM   #4
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Legally Evander unlike Toney has not, to my knowledge failed a test...
Let's not play lawyerball with the facts. Mark McGwire has never failed a steroid test either, while Rafael Palmiero testified to Congress that he'd never touch the stuff just months before he tested positive himself.

A man with Holyfield's birthdate and Holyfield's personal cell phone number repeatedly ordered steroids from Applied Pharmacy in Mobile, Alabama in 2004. The details came out this February shortly after the pharmacy was raided by federal agents, with several other professional athletes being implicated for purchasing from the same pharmacy.

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Old 06-22-2007, 04:46 PM   #5
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UpWithEvil
Let's not play lawyerball with the facts. Mark McGwire has never failed a steroid test either, while Rafael Palmiero testified to Congress that he'd never touch the stuff just months before he tested positive himself.

A man with Holyfield's birthdate and Holyfield's personal cell phone number repeatedly ordered steroids from Applied Pharmacy in Mobile, Alabama in 2004. The details came out this February shortly after the pharmacy was raided by federal agents, with several other professional athletes being implicated for purchasing from the same pharmacy.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Well, if we are to be fair, you need to be proven guilty to be hung. The fact is Holyfield is not guilty at the moment. Sure that may not please all, but it is the way it should be done IMO.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Steroid use simply has to impact someone's placement all-time. I believe he has used it, but let them convict him.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:50 PM   #7
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

From the article:

"We spoke with several officials with the Nevada Athletic Commission, and while HGH is on a list of banned substances, boxers are not tested for it."

Given this fact, the exculpatory power of, "Evander...has not, to my knowledge failed a test" has to be considered worthless.

But this isn't about something as trivial as matters of law, "guilty" vs "not guilty". No jury is going to rule that Holyfield's heavyweight career received an unfair boost due to his reliance on under-the-counter pharmaceuticals. Your standard of legal "guilt" or "non-guilt" doesn't really factor into this.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
Well, if we are to be fair, you need to be proven guilty to be hung. The fact is Holyfield is not guilty at the moment. Sure that may not please all, but it is the way it should be done IMO.

I agree with you.

Thought there's no need for this truth to affect this thread about a theoretical topic and rating fighters.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:51 PM   #9
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marnoff
Steroid use simply has to impact someone's placement all-time. I believe he has used it, but let them convict him.
I agree, I used to have a lot of time for James Toney... but not anymore.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:52 PM   #10
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

When did steroids first become available?
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:55 PM   #11
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
I agree with you.

Thought there's no need for this truth to affect this thread about a theoretical topic and rating fighters.
We're not talking about sending Evander to jail.

If you want the truth, here's the truth:

A man with Holyfield's private phone number, living at a non-existent address ("794 Evander") and sharing Holyfield's birthdate repeatedly purchased steroids from a pharmacy which also provided steroids to numerous other professional athletes.

Again, this isn't about legal culpability or standards of evidence, admissibility, or any of that other lawyerly bullshit; how Johnny Cochrane would bamboozle the evidence shouldn't matter here.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:56 PM   #12
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
When did steroids first become available?
Widely? 1950s, early-60s.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:58 PM   #13
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UpWithEvil
Widely? 1950s, early-60s.
And when to a select few?
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:59 PM   #14
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by UpWithEvil
We're not talking about sending Evander to jail.

If you want the truth, here's the truth:

A man with Holyfield's private phone number, living at a non-existent address ("794 Evander") and sharing Holyfield's birthdate repeatedly purchased steroids from a pharmacy which also provided steroids to numerous other professional athletes.

Again, this isn't about legal culpability or standards of evidence, admissibility, or any of that other lawyerly bullshit; how Johnny Cochrane would bamboozle the evidence shouldn't matter here.

Yeah, I know all this.

Like I said, this is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss.
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Old 06-22-2007, 05:01 PM   #15
UpWithEvil
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
And when to a select few?
IIRC, testosterone was first synthesized in the late-30s. That would be considered the first synthetic steroid hormone. I don't believe it was used for performance-enhancement until after the war, when Soviet scientists began to experiment with human subjects.
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