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Old 06-23-2007, 06:07 AM   #31
JohnThomas1
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Lee Haney (Body building great) was instrumental in Holyfields gaining of weight and training at the time he went to Heavyweight. Haney had great knowledge of steriods. Whether or not this means Holyfield used roids at that time we don't really know.
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Old 06-25-2007, 08:33 PM   #32
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

If it can be proven that Evander abused steroids or more likely HGH then IMO it would negatively affect the "Real Deal's" overall standings. I'm always skeptical when I see a naturally gifted athlete put on an unusually high amount of muscle mass,ripped muscle mass in a relatively short period of time. The sad part is that in Boxing, this is'nt even necessary. Nothing replaces good old fashioned hard work like the old timers used to do. Ali, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey et al trained this way and the results speak for themselves.
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:39 AM   #33
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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Originally Posted by UpWithEvil
I was going to reply to another poster in the "Top 10" thread, but I thought this topic was significant enough to warrant its own thread.

Evander Holyfield has had an impressive heavyweight career and certainly has to be ranked among the elite heavyweight of his generation.

However, there is very little doubt that Evander Holyfield has used "steroids" (and to save time, by "steroids" I mean a catchall term for various anabolic agents and trophic hormones, and exclude corticosteroids) during his career. Because boxing, like professional baseball, was largely ignorant of the extent of steroid use during the 90s, Holyfield received little scrutinty to this effect during his heavyweight prime and was only caught with his hand in the juice jar in recent years.

For those of you who rank Holyfield hightly on an all-time heavyweight basis, does his use of steroids affect your placement? If irrefutable evidence came to light proving that Holyfield had been abusing steroids since he made the leap to the heavyweight ranks in the early-90s (and thus was "on steroids" for all of his heavyweight bouts) would that disqualify him from your rankings?
No.
Vitali Klitschko, James Toney, Frans Botha and Roy Jones JR. have all FAILED DRUGS TESTS, so it baffles me why people single out Holyfield. Perhaps because he was better at heavyweight ?

Tommy Morrison admitted he took them all through his career. Mike Tyson's people paid Razor Ruddock's people quite a bit of money to drop the insistence on steroid tests for their fights.

I think Evander Holyfield has likely taken some drugs to improve strength and recovery over the years.
I think Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Wladimir Klitschko, Hasim Rahman and many other top heavyweights have probably taken drugs/hormones to help strength/power/recovery too.

People have singled out Holyfield his entire career, because he was an established fighter at 190 who had the balls and ability to become great at heavyweight when others were saying he couldn't do it.
Nevermind the fact that despite being almost 6'3 tall he never went much beyond 215 pounds, he's still labelled a major juicer. That's funny, most steroid freaks of a frame that size might at least bulk up to 230 or 235 if they were such big users.
I suspect Holyfield used drugs, but clearly not excessively by the standards of the day.

Of course, Holyfield also gets singled out because he is always IN-SHAPE.
If he carried 40 pounds of flab on him he'd be less maligned for his alleged "drug use" since the ignorant consensus view of steroids is that they turn your body in a Schwarzenegger-type phsique.
James Toney has had to get caught twice with a ****tail of steroids in his bloodstream, and moved all the way up from 160, and only now is he on a par with Holyfield in the "drugs use" rumour mill ! Because no one wants a physique like Toney's so they dont naturally take his steroid use as seriously !
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:43 AM   #34
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
Mike Tyson's people paid Razor Ruddock's people quite a bit of money to drop the insistence on steroid tests for their fights.
I'd like the source on this one Sonny, i've never heard of it but did lose a bit of contact for a few years.
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Old 06-26-2007, 09:22 AM   #35
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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Originally Posted by McGrain
This is such a horrible question.

The guy still goes in and puts it all on the line. He still has to beat the best in the division.

But I think yes, it would affect my rankings. Also, it would be almost impossible to quantify degrees to which his rating would be damaged. So i'd probably just lift him out of my ratings alltogether. I have him at #8 just now.
I totally agree with all these sentiments. Evander is also currently at #8 in my ATG list ...
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Old 06-26-2007, 09:28 AM   #36
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

I think why Holyfield may be singled out is that Holyfield is a devout hristian, and good hristian men aren't supposed to cheat. that's my take on him being singled out.
If it was proved tyson took roids, nobody would bat an eyelid because we'd say "oh, typical." When mr. clean Holy does it, the situation takes on a radical new turn.

Firstly, we have to establish whether steroids impacts on one's boxing performance.
I took a mild steroid for 3 months once and I can tell you it's something you cannot comprehend until you've tried it.
I got bigger in a very short space of time. In three weeks people were asking my why I was getting big so quickly. It made me a LOT stonger as well, again in a short space of time.
I was adding 10 kilograms (22 pounds) to the squat bar on a weekly basis. Think about that for a second.
On top of all that, I had boundless energy and wanted to train all the time. I felt like I could train all day.

The benefits to a boxer would be immeasurable. He would put on lean muscle mass quickly, get stronger and train harder. He'd also recover more quickly from hard training and as an added bonus the drug could (but not always) make him naturally more agressive.

With the obvious benefits, would a pro boxer take the risk of losing all credibility to take steroids? Probably, yes.
The huge amounts of money that can be made in boxing ensure that athletes will do whatever's possible to gain an edge. Let's not forget about a natural competitive streak and pride too. There are lots of reasons why boxers do not want to lose, and if a drug can help make them win, they'll do it.

Let's face it, most boxers are not angels to start with, and I doubt many would have many moral qualms about taking steroids. I know Evander's a Christian and all, but he's not beyond hypocrisy, or to put it another way, he's human and prone to weaknesses, just like all of us.

Was Evander on steroids? I'd be surprised if he wasn't. He put on about 30-35lbs. of lean muscle mass during his career.
In a sport like boxing, where the constant cardiovascular training would make it difficult for a man to build up serious muscle, Evander "grew" from a rather lean cruiserweight into a heavily-muscled heavyweight.
That said, I think 90 to 95% of sportsmen and women take steroids. I'm pretty sure post-prison Tyson took roids and guys like Vinny Pazienza and Micheal Moorer too. Plenty of boxers have and will continue to do so.

Does it detract from his legacy? A little, yes. After all, we'll never know just how much it helped him, but we can safely say that to a degree taking steroids did.
However, as I said he was hardly alone in this department, although some of his opponents probably were clean.
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Old 06-26-2007, 12:18 PM   #37
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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With the obvious benefits, would a pro boxer take the risk of losing all credibility to take steroids? Probably, yes.
"Probably"? There was absolutely zero scrutiny of steroid use in boxing during the 90s. Even today it's largely considered a non-issue. Heck, even today, with Holyfield caught with his hand in the juicer jar there are still denialists who will settle for nothing less than photographic evidence of Holyfield, needle-in-ass, before they accept reality.

Boxing, like baseball, is going to have to come to grips with the proliferation of performance-enhancing drugs during the 1990s. Baseball is at least making a token effort in that regard; witness Mark McGwire's failure to be elected to the Hall of Fame despite offensive number that rank him among the all-time elite (and, of course, note that McGwire never failed a steroid test either). It is now tacitly acknowledge that most of baseball's sluggers from that decade - McGwire, Sosa, Barry Bonds, Jason Giambi, Rafael Palmiero, et al, were all using steroids, along with a host of lesser All-Stars (Bret Boone, Ken Camineti, Ivan Rodriguez). Boxing needs to make a serious assessment of its own house in this regard.
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Old 06-26-2007, 12:37 PM   #38
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Riddick Bowe beat Holyfield in his prime. Bowe is clearly the better heavyweight.
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Old 06-27-2007, 10:11 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I'd like the source on this one Sonny, i've never heard of it but did lose a bit of contact for a few years.
I'm sorry, I cant find the exact source. I'm 90% sure I've got it right here. It appeared in one of the boxing magazines at the time. Apparently Ruddock was in the habit of insisting on steroids tests. (I dont think they were widespread in non-title fights at the time).
I seem to remember it reported that Tyson paid thousands of dollars to forgo the test.
Not that this means Tyson was taking steroids, perhaps he was worried something else (eg. recreational drugs) may be discovered.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:14 AM   #40
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

It's funny 'cause Holy's religious motto going into the Tyson fight was, in short, "Strength through god". If it's true about the roids, something I suspect more likely true than false, then his god is an illegal drug.

Last edited by JimmyShimmy; 06-27-2007 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 06-27-2007, 11:15 AM   #41
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I'm sorry, I cant find the exact source. I'm 90% sure I've got it right here. It appeared in one of the boxing magazines at the time. Apparently Ruddock was in the habit of insisting on steroids tests. (I dont think they were widespread in non-title fights at the time).
I seem to remember it reported that Tyson paid thousands of dollars to forgo the test.
Not that this means Tyson was taking steroids, perhaps he was worried something else (eg. recreational drugs) may be discovered.
Tyson's probably been a pothead his whole life.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's been on blow for many years and only now it's really known that he uses b/c he got arrested.
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Old 07-11-2007, 05:50 PM   #42
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

I JUST WANT TO PUT ASIDE THE ISSUE OF TOP 10. THE THING ABOUT HOLYFIELD IS THAT ON ANY GIVEN NIGHT, HE WAS CAPABLE OF BEATING ANY HEAVYWEIGHT THAT EVER LIVED. HE HAD ABILITY AND GREAT DETERMINATION. HE WAS ALWAYS IN GREAT SHAPE.
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Old 07-15-2007, 09:42 AM   #43
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
Legally Evander unlike Toney has not, to my knowledge failed a test...
Exactly. Until anyone can produce a positive test that showed Holyfield was taking roids, exactly which fights he taking roids for, AND prove that they somehow caused him to win fights he wouldn't have otherwise won, these unsubstantiated will remain nothing more than idle speculation.
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Old 07-15-2007, 09:49 AM   #44
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fists of fury
I think why Holyfield may be singled out is that Holyfield is a devout hristian, and good hristian men aren't supposed to cheat. that's my take on him being singled out.
If it was proved tyson took roids, nobody would bat an eyelid because we'd say "oh, typical." When mr. clean Holy does it, the situation takes on a radical new turn.

Firstly, we have to establish whether steroids impacts on one's boxing performance.
I took a mild steroid for 3 months once and I can tell you it's something you cannot comprehend until you've tried it.
I got bigger in a very short space of time. In three weeks people were asking my why I was getting big so quickly. It made me a LOT stonger as well, again in a short space of time.
I was adding 10 kilograms (22 pounds) to the squat bar on a weekly basis. Think about that for a second.
On top of all that, I had boundless energy and wanted to train all the time. I felt like I could train all day.

The benefits to a boxer would be immeasurable. He would put on lean muscle mass quickly, get stronger and train harder. He'd also recover more quickly from hard training and as an added bonus the drug could (but not always) make him naturally more agressive.

With the obvious benefits, would a pro boxer take the risk of losing all credibility to take steroids? Probably, yes.
The huge amounts of money that can be made in boxing ensure that athletes will do whatever's possible to gain an edge. Let's not forget about a natural competitive streak and pride too. There are lots of reasons why boxers do not want to lose, and if a drug can help make them win, they'll do it.

Let's face it, most boxers are not angels to start with, and I doubt many would have many moral qualms about taking steroids. I know Evander's a Christian and all, but he's not beyond hypocrisy, or to put it another way, he's human and prone to weaknesses, just like all of us.

Was Evander on steroids? I'd be surprised if he wasn't. He put on about 30-35lbs. of lean muscle mass during his career.
In a sport like boxing, where the constant cardiovascular training would make it difficult for a man to build up serious muscle, Evander "grew" from a rather lean cruiserweight into a heavily-muscled heavyweight.
That said, I think 90 to 95% of sportsmen and women take steroids. I'm pretty sure post-prison Tyson took roids and guys like Vinny Pazienza and Micheal Moorer too. Plenty of boxers have and will continue to do so.

Does it detract from his legacy? A little, yes. After all, we'll never know just how much it helped him, but we can safely say that to a degree taking steroids did.
However, as I said he was hardly alone in this department, although some of his opponents probably were clean.
Clean living Evander
There has simply been lots of links between holyfield and steroid use, which is very different to smoking cannabis
Also Zakman if this had instead been about Lewis we all know you would be taking a different line.
Lol having to prove using steroids in a particular fight actually helped him win and if he would have won without them!
Might as well just legalise it all guys!
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:02 AM   #45
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakman
Exactly. Until anyone can produce a positive test that showed Holyfield was taking roids, exactly which fights he taking roids for, AND prove that they somehow caused him to win fights he wouldn't have otherwise won, these unsubstantiated will remain nothing more than idle speculation.
Oh, Mr. Holyfield is clean as can be. But this Evan Fields fellow, who lives on Evander Drive and shares a cell phone with Evander - well, he buys steroids by the bucketful and is not to be trusted.
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