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Old 07-15-2007, 11:20 AM   #46
TBooze
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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Originally Posted by Zakman
AND prove that they somehow caused him to win fights he wouldn't have otherwise won, these unsubstantiated will remain nothing more than idle speculation.
No, If it is proven Holyfield has taken drugs in any fight, win or lose, Holyfield should lose all credibility... But he has not, so he should not.
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:34 AM   #47
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

All of the available evidence points to Evander Holyfield being more of a steroid collector than a steroid user.
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Old 07-15-2007, 11:37 AM   #48
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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All of the available evidence points to Evander Holyfield being more of a steroid collector than a steroid user.
Yes, hopefully I am wrong and that is the case, but I got a feeling that in the end if the guilt is there, it will be found out.

If a fighter is found out to of taken steroids, his career would mean nothing IMO and he would hopefully never be allowed to box again.
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Old 07-15-2007, 12:31 PM   #49
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Until you place the roids in his veins and prove that it made a difference, all you have is speculation, nothing more. Show me a positive test and then it's arguable. Until then, it's nothing more than rumor and innuendo.
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:11 PM   #50
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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Originally Posted by Zakman
Until you place the roids in his veins and prove that it made a difference, all you have is speculation, nothing more. Show me a positive test and then it's arguable. Until then, it's nothing more than rumor and innuendo.
If it can be proved Holyfield has taken steroids then nothing is 'arguable' he is guilty as charged.
Anyway Holyfield will always have to deal with these questions, and many people will accept there is enough circumstancial evidence to conclude he had/does use steroids.
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Old 07-15-2007, 01:23 PM   #51
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

I suggest that a lot of boxers have taken or take steroids to aid training. Jones was found out,toney,botha and many others....Some may admit this in interviews.....I think if we really open our eyes and see the reality of the situation we could see that in modern boxing it is a big factor as are banned diuretics that help guys to cut 15 pounds then gain it back overnight to have a big size difference come fight time.....
To me its cheating as guys are just trying to get an unfair advantage....The thing is i bet insiders in the fight game know this goes on but either turn a blind eye or justify it by saying everbody else does it.....
To me its hypocrisy,either legalise all steroids under doctors supervision so its a level playing field or ban competitors who get caught.....
Guys who preach christian values or such like but who are obviously on gear are hypocrites,liars and two faced....
Any boxer who has used them or any other drugs dents their all time standing immensely,and in fact shouldnt be ranked at all....
Can you imagine if guys like ali,monzon,robinson and such like had used steroids? How much greater would they have been? How can we compare fighters on steroids with old timers or clean boxers?
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:38 PM   #52
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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The Holyfield taking steroids rumor is a bit annoying when there's no tests that prove he did.
It wouldnt be a rumor then would it
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:41 PM   #53
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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Originally Posted by enquirer
I suggest that a lot of boxers have taken or take steroids to aid training. Jones was found out,toney,botha and many others....Some may admit this in interviews.....I think if we really open our eyes and see the reality of the situation we could see that in modern boxing it is a big factor as are banned diuretics that help guys to cut 15 pounds then gain it back overnight to have a big size difference come fight time.....
To me its cheating as guys are just trying to get an unfair advantage....The thing is i bet insiders in the fight game know this goes on but either turn a blind eye or justify it by saying everbody else does it.....
To me its hypocrisy,either legalise all steroids under doctors supervision so its a level playing field or ban competitors who get caught.....
Guys who preach christian values or such like but who are obviously on gear are hypocrites,liars and two faced....
Any boxer who has used them or any other drugs dents their all time standing immensely,and in fact shouldnt be ranked at all....
Can you imagine if guys like ali,monzon,robinson and such like had used steroids? How much greater would they have been? How can we compare fighters on steroids with old timers or clean boxers?
Excellent point about the de-hydration / rehydration process, as this IMO is a form of cheating too, what once was a 160lb'er against a 160lb'er is now a 160lb'er against a 174lb'er for the 'middleweight' title, doesnt sit right does it
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Old 07-15-2007, 02:57 PM   #54
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

I think the day before weigh ins have made weight categories misleading and its hard to compare categories to the past nowadays....
I think there should be the 30 day check weigh in to determine if a boxer is losing weight sensibly. And the weigh in should be on the day of the fight,or even just before they enter the ring...If this is not practical then there should be a rule where your weight in the ring cannot exceed the next weight category up,eg a 154 guy could not weigh 160 or more in the ring. I feel this would make the categories more meaningful,make boxing safer (by reducing dehydration.) and stop the 'weight making difficulties' excuses you get from all these guys who put on 15 pounds after the weigh in and ONLY use this 'weight difficulties' excuse when they lose but never think its a factor when they beat on guys fifteen pounds lighter than them...
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:07 PM   #55
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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The Holyfield taking steroids rumor is a bit annoying when there's no tests that prove he did.
Like I said, all the evidence only shows that Holyfield purchased steroids. Who knows what he did with them? Traded them for baseball cards, gave them out at Halloween, donated them to a summer camp for scrawny kids - it's all speculation.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:19 PM   #56
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

if takin steroids made you a great fighter...everyone would take em..simple as that.......holyfield is a great fighter, from cruiserweight days to hw champ....a real fighter with a real fighters heart.......if steroids made champions, loius monaco and johnny thunder would be world champs......
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:24 PM   #57
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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Originally Posted by bigG
if takin steroids made you a great fighter...everyone would take em..simple as that.......holyfield is a great fighter, from cruiserweight days to hw champ....a real fighter with a real fighters heart.......if steroids made champions, loius monaco and johnny thunder would be world champs......
You have a point to a degree; Holyfield is as we speak not guilty, so I will use Toney as an example.

The steroids may of turned a good fighter, into an excellent one. That is not fair to his opponents who did not take steroids, and fighters who lose ratings because Toney cheated to get an advantage over them.
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Old 07-15-2007, 04:53 PM   #58
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

Of course steroids wont turn anybody into an all time great but they can help a great/good or all time great fighter get an unfair advantage over other fighters......ie its cheating....
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Old 07-15-2007, 06:44 PM   #59
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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Originally Posted by Sonny's jab
I'm sorry, I cant find the exact source. I'm 90% sure I've got it right here. It appeared in one of the boxing magazines at the time. Apparently Ruddock was in the habit of insisting on steroids tests. (I dont think they were widespread in non-title fights at the time).
I seem to remember it reported that Tyson paid thousands of dollars to forgo the test.
Not that this means Tyson was taking steroids, perhaps he was worried something else (eg. recreational drugs) may be discovered.
Your post was vilifyingly misleading. Marijuana and steroids are two different things in boxing. Everyone knows Tyson smokes weed. So what was your purpose? Certainly not just to say that Tyson smokes weed - common knowledge?

Last edited by hobgoblin; 07-15-2007 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 07-15-2007, 09:55 PM   #60
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Default Re: If You Rank Holyfield a Top-10 ATG...

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Originally Posted by TBooze
You have a point to a degree; Holyfield is as we speak not guilty, so I will use Toney as an example.

The steroids may of turned a good fighter, into an excellent one. That is not fair to his opponents who did not take steroids, and fighters who lose ratings because Toney cheated to get an advantage over them.
did toney not have a legitimate excuse for his positive test...some kinda cortisone/steroid for an injury??....i cant see how steroid use made jt a better fighter....he was/is a defensive master with excellent counterpunching style, sharp and accurate.....steroid use could add to your power possibly, allow you to train harder and longer than usual and add to lean muscle mass in the longer term.....but i cant see much lean muscle mass on jt and steroid use wouldnt have helped him hone the skills/attributes he already has/had....a more muscle bound boxer will become just that..bound..less able to move, less fluid in their movments and ultimately, will tire much quicker as the larger muscle mass wears them down...(see shannon briggs for reference...!!)...use of steroids that increase muscle mass can make you more exposive in the short term, but prone to fatigue in the longer term..holyfield has always fought at a pace and delivered hard, accurate sharp punches.....steroid use, for whatever reason, or not...holyfield is an atg in my opinion....
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