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Old 02-15-2009, 07:03 AM   #61
smellmyfinger
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

Name calling aside, the debating has been fun boys. I have to get up at 5am, so im out.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:03 AM   #62
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

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Originally Posted by LeonMcS View Post
Hmmm, the thing is, Ottke was the original champ. Without him moving up to 'Super' champ status, Mundine would never have had the oppurtunity to fight for the second tier title.
Yes, I agree that in the (WBA) record books he will then become the champ, but at what point did he beat the original belt holder?
Its for instances like these that the term of 'paper champ' was invented. He didn't beat the belt holder. If a belt becomes vacant then a match is arranged between two contenders. The winner of that then becomes the champ, ok, he is not the linear champ but he has done all that could be done in that instance. Its this stupid and greedy peice of rulemaking by the WBA that allows this shit to happen in the first place.
Yes, to me, if a guy who grabs a vacant belt makes a successful defence against a contender then in my eyes at least i would recognise him as the champ. This didn't happen in this case, without me taking the valuable 5 seconds to check boxrec. Its irrelevant if its Mundine or not, I would think this way no matter who the person was. To me, belts are only won in the ring, not courts or otherwise.
In a perfect world Mundine would have ben the #1 contender, a spot he earned. If the champ has retired he would then fight someone in say the top 5 for the vacant championship.
The WBA in my eyes has lost the credibilty that once saw it as one of the big three, its now only living off its past name as a belt of any credibilty.
Yes, it may have been bad luck that Mundine wasn't able to challenge the man who had the title, but because he retired and Mundine was the 'regular' champ, a ridiculous position, doesn't suddenly make him the belt holder, especially without beating anybody.
Agree with this 110%. I certainly don't consider Mundine to have been a world champion. As the WBA regular champion (behind Ottke at the time as super champ) he is, in a sensible world, just the WBA's number 1 contender. If the super champion then retires then the number 1 and 2 contenders should then fight off for the vacant belt. I don't care that in the WBA record books they made Mundine the champion when the super champ (Ottke) retires. In my mind he would have only become a legit champion if his 1st defence was succesfull against Siaca, and it wasn't.

If a WBC champion retires, the number 1 contender can't then say that he is then the champion untill he fights for and wins the vacant title against another WBC contender.

Mundine being a world champ is all utter bullshit.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:32 AM   #63
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

wasnt his first defense against Nishydishwasher?? Voluntary, maybe, but he defended it successfully as the title was on the line...
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:43 AM   #64
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

Yes, first defence was against the legendary Nishizawa. Possibly one of the worst fighters to ever challenge for a "world title".
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:01 AM   #65
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

Mundine WBA Champ ? , ****ing clever bastard had the nerve to go swanning around the gold coast tellng everyone he was the Champ AFTER the two REAL CHAMPS fought it out to determine who the UNDISPUTED CHAMP was , Kessler covered himself in Glory that night , Calzaghe broke Kessler's heart and covered himself with the belts, THEN when the WBA ordered Mundine to defend his given mickey mouse belt v Kessler he RAN down to Middle weight and fought a WW ten years past his prime ( No diss Shannan ) For the WTF ? title , Just call him THREE TIME TWO WEIGHT WORD CHAMPION and carry on with the Charade
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:35 AM   #66
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

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wasnt his first defense against Nishydishwasher?? Voluntary, maybe, but he defended it successfully as the title was on the line...
Ottke was still fighting at that stage. Ottke defended his WBA super title after Mundine fought Nishydishwhatshisname. So therefore Mundine never beat the WBA champion for his "world title" and never defended his "world title" when there wasn't a WBA super champion above him. I can't see how anyone can consider him to have been a world champion. He was simply the WBA number 1 contender in my book at that time.
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Old 02-15-2009, 01:47 PM   #67
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

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Originally Posted by JOSEY WALES View Post
Mundine WBA Champ ? , ****ing clever bastard had the nerve to go swanning around the gold coast tellng everyone he was the Champ AFTER the two REAL CHAMPS fought it out to determine who the UNDISPUTED CHAMP was , Kessler covered himself in Glory that night , Calzaghe broke Kessler's heart and covered himself with the belts, THEN when the WBA ordered Mundine to defend his given mickey mouse belt v Kessler he RAN down to Middle weight and fought a WW ten years past his prime ( No diss Shannan ) For the WTF ? title , Just call him THREE TIME TWO WEIGHT WORD CHAMPION and carry on with the Charade
Josey mate, i think only the hard core nuthuggers are claiming he was champ around the Kessler/Calzaghe days. The argument was more around the Echols/Ottke days.
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Old 02-15-2009, 03:56 PM   #68
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

very impressive ozstriker. thanks for that...!



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How about you do some research....
Bob Craig (rugby)
Australian[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]1910-1911  [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]2(0)[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]1910-1914  [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]7(3)[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]Playing career[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]LockProvincial/State sides 1907[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ](points)1908[Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]1(0)Robert Robertson Craig (1 September 1881 5 March 1935) was a pioneer [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] footballer who represented his country at both sports. He was one of the Australia's early dual code rugby internationals. He was a member of the Australian rugby union team, which won the gold medal at the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
Olympic medal recordMen's [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]Gold[Only registered and activated users can see links. ][Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Prior to his rugby careers Craig was one of Australia's greatest all-round sportsmen. He won eight consecutive State swimming championships between 1899 and 1906; he appeared in four Sydney premiership winning water polo sides and in 1905 he was a member of the Balmain soccer club which that year won the State premiership.
Craig toured Britain and North America with the 1908-09 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and at the end of that tour won Olympic Gold medal in London in the team captained by [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
On his return to Australia he joined the fledgling code of rugby league along with 13 of his Olympic teammates.
Rugby league career
His club football was played with the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] whom he helped to four premierships between 1915 and 1919.
Craig made his international league debut in the First Test in Sydney on 18 June 1910.
He played in both rugby league Tests against Great Britain in Australia in 1910 and was selected on the 1911 [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] tour of Great Britain. He played 31 tour matches and scored 7 tries. He played at second row in all three victorious Tests of the tour.
He returned to representative honors in 1914 playing two Tests when Australia hosted the Great Britain tourists. All up Craig played in 7 rugby league Tests and 35 times for Australia..
Neil Hawke (27 June 1939 - 25 December 2000) was an [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and leading [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
Born in [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], Hawke quickly developed as a natural all-round sportsman who excelled in cricket, football and golf and made his senior Australian rules football debut for [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (SANFL) club [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] in August 1957. Hawke stamped himself as a future champion when in his third game he kicked 15 goals for Port against [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] before being surprisingly dropped two weeks later.
Hawke quit Port at the end of 1957 to try his hand in [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and made his [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] (WAFL) debut in 1958 for [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], playing 42 matches and kicking 157 goals in two seasons with the Royals, including East Perth's 1958 and 1959 premierships. Hawke topped the WAFL's goalkicking list in 1959 with 114 goals, represented Western Australia against [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and gained local fame for apparently being the first footballer to perfect the drop punt over a long distance. Previously, the drop punt was only used over short distances on wet days but Hawke's innovation was said to have revolutionised the game in Western Australia.
Fresh from his success on the football field, Hawke also made an impact on the cricket field as a medium-fast swing bowler with an unusual "crab-like'" action, a capable lower-order batsman and a sound fieldsman. He became the first (and still the only) person to have represented both South Australia and Western Australia in Australian Rules football and cricket. His cricket also developed enough for him to make his Test debut on 15 February 1963 in the Fifth [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] against [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] at the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], scoring 14 and recording match figures of 2/89.
Hawke was a member of the 1963/64 Sheffield Shield winning South Australian team, and toured England (where he qualified for the British amateur golf championship [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] and [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] in 1964 and the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] in 1965. The West Indies tour found Hawke in top form as he took 24 wickets at 21.83 in the Test series, including match figures of 10-115 in the third Test at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], as well as making his highest score, an unbeaten 45 at [Only registered and activated users can see links. ], [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. Back in Australia in 1965/66, Hawke recorded his best innings figures of 7/105 against England in the third Test at the [Only registered and activated users can see links. ].
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:26 PM   #69
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

haha sally Oz tends to do his homework
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Old 02-16-2009, 01:41 AM   #70
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

look mundine was full WBA campion of the world after ottke last fight which was in late march 2004 which he retired straight after the fight, Mundine was WBA champ for a full month until he lost to Manny siaca in early may 2004, I know it is silly with all these titles, but he was a world champion I know it hurts alot of you guys here who hate the guys. A similar thing happened to Ken Norton in the late 70s with WBC, look mundine is a clown with his mouth, but he has had a amazing career for a guy who moved from one sport to a totally different sport and was able to compete at the top of the sport, it is very hard thing to do and let lone make the second sport fighting, the hardest sport in the world, anybody with clear mind can see that.
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Old 02-16-2009, 02:24 AM   #71
ipswich express
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

Actually it's not exactly the same. Norton beat the next top contender in Jimmy Young for the right to face Leon Spinks for the WBC title. Spinks chose to rematch Ali instead and the WBC stripped him. At least Norton, and Lennox Lewis later on, faced the highest available contender. The WBA's super champion belt thingy is a debacle. It's nothing more than a glorified #1 contender's spot.
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Old 02-16-2009, 03:12 AM   #72
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

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Originally Posted by ipswich express View Post
Actually it's not exactly the same. Norton beat the next top contender in Jimmy Young for the right to face Leon Spinks for the WBC title. Spinks chose to rematch Ali instead and the WBC stripped him. At least Norton, and Lennox Lewis later on, faced the highest available contender. The WBA's super champion belt thingy is a debacle. It's nothing more than a glorified #1 contender's spot.
But u could argue Echols was the next top contender if u use that reference Ippy.
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:27 AM   #73
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

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Originally Posted by Francis75 View Post
Agree with this 110%. I certainly don't consider Mundine to have been a world champion. As the WBA regular champion (behind Ottke at the time as super champ) he is, in a sensible world, just the WBA's number 1 contender. If the super champion then retires then the number 1 and 2 contenders should then fight off for the vacant belt. I don't care that in the WBA record books they made Mundine the champion when the super champ (Ottke) retires. In my mind he would have only become a legit champion if his 1st defence was succesfull against Siaca, and it wasn't.

If a WBC champion retires, the number 1 contender can't then say that he is then the champion untill he fights for and wins the vacant title against another WBC contender.

Mundine being a world champ is all utter bullshit.
I see what you are saying mate, however when you look at Ottke and Mundine, under the WBA's terminology, Ottke was the Super Champion and Mundine was the World Champion (not 'regular' champion), hence when Ottke retired, Mundine was the WBA World Champion. With no super champion in existence, he is the rightful holder of the WBA title.

This could be argued till the cows come home, but that is the raw fact, no defence against Siaca was required to confirm his status as champion as he was the world champion.
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:47 AM   #74
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

Choc won't fight Pavlick in 2009!
Choc won"t fight Sturm in 2009!
Choc will not fight anyone in 2009 that has a remote chance of beating him for reasons that would be obvious to Stevie bloody Wonder for christs sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Since beating Green how many times have we heard this shit.
" I want to fight the best" " Ive challenged all the big names" " Their all frightened of me"
He ran from Kessler and he'll continue to avoid any quality opponants.
This year should see a couple of handpicked argies, some earth shattering revelations around October,November and then come 2010 more of the same shit all over again.
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Old 02-16-2009, 08:55 AM   #75
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Default Re: Arum says if he cant get Sturm or Abraham for Pavlik he'd turn to Mundine.

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Originally Posted by mundinechamp View Post
I see what you are saying mate, however when you look at Ottke and Mundine, under the WBA's terminology, Ottke was the Super Champion and Mundine was the World Champion (not 'regular' champion), hence when Ottke retired, Mundine was the WBA World Champion. With no super champion in existence, he is the rightful holder of the WBA title.

This could be argued till the cows come home, but that is the raw fact, no defence against Siaca was required to confirm his status as champion as he was the world champion.
I'm not disputing that Mundines name is in the WBA's record books as the WBA champion when Ottke retired. You may think of him as a legitimate world champion but i certainly don't because of the reasons i explained earlier. At the time Ottke was the genuine WBA champion , Mundine was just a glorified number 1 contender, Ottke retires then Mundine losses his next fight to Siaca. In a normal world the Mundine-Siaca fight would have been for the vacant belt that Ottke gave up when he retired.
The bottom line is that the WBA's whole "regular"champion status is bollocks. Everyone knows that including you if you are being honest.

Last edited by Francis75; 02-16-2009 at 10:53 AM.
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