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Old 02-17-2009, 06:29 PM   #16
RDJ
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Default Re: Whey Isolate

Just for ****s sake could you link me to the research that shows I need predigested protein within minutes after finishing my boxing workout? I feel like reading up on it.
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Old 02-17-2009, 06:51 PM   #17
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Default Re: Whey Isolate

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For a bodybuilder perhaps, I don't need 30 grams of protein within minutes. My meals contain all kinds of nutrients found in natural food, that aid recovery as well. Nutrients not present in those supplements. My post workout meal contains some protein that digests a bit quicker, and some that takes longer. I think my body is perfectly capable of sorting that out. There's more to nutrition than protein.

My recovery is excellent on natural foods, better than it ever was on supplements. So no thanks, I'll stick to what to me is clearly superior, the real deal.
It doesn't just benefit bodybuilders even endurance athletes know the importance of a proper post workout nutrition which includes simple carbs, minerals, nutrients and whey protein.
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Old 02-17-2009, 07:03 PM   #18
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It doesn't just benefit bodybuilders even endurance athletes know the importance of a proper post workout nutrition which includes simple carbs, minerals, nutrients and whey protein.
Nowhere did I say proper nutrition doesn't benefit all athletes

I just don't think proper nutrition means getting 30 grams of protein within minutes, I think it's a bit more complicated.
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Old 02-17-2009, 07:04 PM   #19
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Default Re: Whey Isolate

You don't need it. It is just he best thing to have after a workout. Regular whey has a certain biological value, say under 100%. Predigested protein means more of it will be absorbed.

Research on whey (fast digesting) versus casein (slow digesting) post workout.
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
Whey protein isolate, not casein, improves strength and body composition
Cribb et al. found that whey protein isolate has a greater ability to enhance the changes in body composition and
strength that accompany routine resistance exercise compared to casein. In this 12-week, double-blind study, 13 male
recreational body builders supplemented their normal diet with one of two proteins: hydrolyzed whey isolate or casein.
Researchers examined the effects of protein supplementation on strength, body composition and glutamine levels in
the blood before and after a 10-week resistance-training program. Results of the study indicate that the hydrolyzed
whey protein isolate group achieved a significant increase in lean body mass and a significant decrease in body fat,
while the casein group showed no significant change in body composition. Additionally, while all subjects experienced
increases in strength following the 10-week training program, the subjects who consumed whey protein showed
significantly greater strength improvements in three exercises (barbell squat, bench press, and cable pull-down)
compared to those who consumed casein. There were no significant effects of either training or supplementation on
blood glutamine levels for either group.
Cribb P, Williams A, Carey M, Hayes A. The effect of whey isolate and resistance training on strength, body composition, and plasma glutamine.
International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism. 2006;16:494-509

Whey, by nature is going to be absorbed, or not absorbed very quickly, no matter what type of whey you are taking. What it comes down to is the bioavailability of the whey you ingest, and how much you ingest.

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Possible Side Effects

Well no side effects have been shown although most doctors suggest that you shouldn’t be going overboard with protein shakes (i.e. a dozen protein shakes a day)! This is one thing I see some people get carried away with. Unless you are a serious bodybuilder you want to go for 2 -3 protein shakes a day at the most.

And remember this one rule, generally your body cannot absorb more than 30grams of whey protein in one sitting. Anything more and your liver is going to go into overdrive to try to process it all. The excess which it can’t absorb will just go right through you.




on bioavailability and whey processing methods.
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Old 02-17-2009, 07:32 PM   #20
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Nowhere did I say proper nutrition doesn't benefit all athletes

I just don't think proper nutrition means getting 30 grams of protein within minutes, I think it's a bit more complicated.

And I never implied that you said it didn't either. I don't seem to have explained myself properly in my prior post.

You questioned the need of 30g of protein digested quickly post workout and seemed to think this is only beneficial if your a body builder or looking to add muscle mass. I am simply saying that even athletes who want to minimise the amount of excess muscle mass like endurance athletes take whey protein. Long distance runners have been taking protein powders post workout as far back as the seventies even before whey protein was sold as a supplement.

Studies have shown that carbs and protein at a ratio of 4:1 post workout along with fluids and proper mineral and nutrients help speed recovery times between training sessions. The importance of the speed of delivery of protein to repair the microtears in muscle fibres after a training session and simple carbs to replenish glycogen stores in muscles is well documented. The faster you can transport protein and glycogen to the muscles the faster the recovery and therefore the better your body will be for the following training session.
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Old 02-17-2009, 07:35 PM   #21
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Nowhere does that does show me that I need large amounts of protein within minutes from a supplement source. It shows some research on bodybuilders that shows eating fast digesting protein post workout is good, and that's why my post workout food contains some fast digesting protein. That much is clear, I do not dispute that. What I do dispute is the amount, and the time in which I need it. What kind of diet were those bodybuilders on, apart from their whey intake? How would they have done on a 100% natural diet containing those same proteins, but more nutrients? That in no way shows me that a boxer needs 30 grams of protein within minutes.

Your second and third link basically explain what whey is, I already knew that.
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Old 02-17-2009, 07:40 PM   #22
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And I never implied that you said it didn't either. I don't seem to have explained myself properly in my prior post.
Sorry for jumping to conclusions then.

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You questioned the need of 30g of protein digested quickly post workout and seemed to think this is only beneficial if your a body builder or looking to add muscle mass. I am simply saying that even athletes who want to minimise the amount of excess muscle mass like endurance athletes take whey protein. Long distance runners have been taking protein powders post workout as far back as the seventies even before whey protein was sold as a supplement.
I know whey protein can be very beneficial for all athletes, I just think it's a bit over the top for a boxer to be concerned with getting so much of it so fast.

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Studies have shown that carbs and protein at a ratio of 4:1 post workout along with fluids and proper mineral and nutrients help speed recovery times between training sessions. The importance of the speed of delivery of protein to repair the microtears in muscle fibres after a training session and simple carbs to replenish glycogen stores in muscles is well documented. The faster you can transport protein and glycogen to the muscles the faster the recovery and therefore the better your body will be for the following training session.
It's the minerals and nutrients that I'm concerned about, that is where whole natural food excels. And that is also the reason I made the claim this whole discussion started with, that the more they find out, the more will be added, and the more the supplement will look like whole natural food.

I don't have anything against whey, it's great stuff, excellent source of protein. But to take a post workout meal consisting of nothing but whey? **** that. In the past I put about 10 grams of it in my post workout shake. I ran out and never replaced it, so now I just add more cottage cheese (fromage frais).
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Old 02-17-2009, 07:45 PM   #23
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Nowhere does that does show me that I need large amounts of protein within minutes from a supplement source. It shows some research on bodybuilders that show eating fast digesting protein post workout is good, and that's why my post workout food contains some fast digesting protein. That much is clear, I do not dispute that. What I do dispute is the amount, and the time in which I need it. What kind of diet were those bodybuilders on, apart from their whey intake? How would they have done on a 100% natural diet containing those same proteins, but more nutrients? That in no way shows me that a boxer needs 30 grams of protein within minutes.

Your second and third link basically explain what whey is, I already knew that.
It helps the recovery process. I'm not saying you need it, I'm saying it is optimal for recovery because immediately after a workout, your body is prime for absorption and will utilize things like whey and a simple sugar very efficiently. It is superior to hitting the shower, cleaning up, and eating your post workout meal 45 minutes later.

I'm not training for anything in particular right now. But, if I were? I'd have a good balanced protein shake after a hard workout, with something along the lines of 20-30 grams of protein, and likely 40-60 grams of simple carbs (like dextrose), and a multivitamin immediately after a hard workout, the sooner the better.

Likley, it is going to be an hour or so for me to clean up and eat my post workout meal. Which would consist of a well balanced meal, probably only slightly less than what you are talking about considering I'm trying to either cut, or maintain weight.
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Old 02-17-2009, 07:54 PM   #24
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It helps the recovery process. I'm not saying you need it, I'm saying it is optimal for recovery because immediately after a workout, your body is prime for absorption and will utilize things like whey and a simple sugar very efficiently. It is superior to hitting the shower, cleaning up, and eating your post workout meal 45 minutes later.

I'm not training for anything in particular right now. But, if I were? I'd have a good balanced protein shake after a hard workout, with something along the lines of 20-30 grams of protein, and likely 40-60 grams of simple carbs (like dextrose), and a multivitamin immediately after a hard workout, the sooner the better.
I take a shake right after my workout, the first real meal is about an hour and a 5 mile bike ride later. Instead of dextrose, a sugar void of the fibers, (trace) minerals and vitamins that should be accompanying it, I add fruits. The multivitamin (that I do take, but in the morning) isn't needed, because those come from fruit. I also add fresh cheese (I think that's cottage cheese but perhaps the translation is off) and yogurt. There's flaxseed oil in it as well, and some cinnamon. If I still had whey protein I would add 5 to 10 grams at most but I ran out.

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Likley, it is going to be an hour or so for me to clean up and eat my post workout meal. Which would consist of a well balanced meal, probably only slightly less than what you are talking about considering I'm trying to either cut, or maintain weight.
My first meal after I get home is usually red meat, chicken or fish and some vegetables. Plus onions, garlic, etc, as rich on nutrients as possible. After that I drink tea (mixed tea with shit loads of herbs). I'm a nutrient junkie instead of a protein junkie
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Old 02-17-2009, 09:43 PM   #25
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mmmmm, Isopure...
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:00 AM   #26
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I take a shake right after my workout, the first real meal is about an hour and a 5 mile bike ride later. Instead of dextrose, a sugar void of the fibers, (trace) minerals and vitamins that should be accompanying it, I add fruits. The multivitamin (that I do take, but in the morning) isn't needed, because those come from fruit. I also add fresh cheese (I think that's cottage cheese but perhaps the translation is off) and yogurt. There's flaxseed oil in it as well, and some cinnamon. If I still had whey protein I would add 5 to 10 grams at most but I ran out.



My first meal after I get home is usually red meat, chicken or fish and some vegetables. Plus onions, garlic, etc, as rich on nutrients as possible. After that I drink tea (mixed tea with shit loads of herbs). I'm a nutrient junkie instead of a protein junkie
I take nutrition very seriously as well. I take into account that the body is only primed, and essentially begging for simple protein and very simple sugars immediately after a workout. In fact, the only time I feel a simple sugar is a good thing is immediately after a workout, and this is specifically to a very simple sugar so that the body loads the starving muscles quickly in order to prevent catabolism, and make the most of that hard work I just put in. A very good alternative to dextrose would be 10-12 oz of orange juice or grape juice mixed with the protein. I would recommend using a vanilla flavored protein so you get more of a creamsicle sort of flavor.

If I wait, or provide the body with a harder to digest carb, then risk missing the window altogether, or catching a less than prime time.

Thats all man.

If your really into eating healthy. You might try replacing your oats with quinoa, lacing your quinoa breakfast with walnuts and blueberries, or perhaps raspberries, a banana depending on whats available.

You might also consider uping your calcium intake (you would be surprised how important calcium is, as well as its benefits), replacing flax with fish oils, as they are known to lower working and resting heart rate with otherwise the same benefits of flax. And some sort of Glucosamine Chondroitin supplement.
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:16 AM   #27
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I don't have anything against whey, it's great stuff, excellent source of protein. But to take a post workout meal consisting of nothing but whey? **** that.
You are absolutely right about just taking protein after a workout, that would have no where near the same beneficial effects as a balance meal containing carbs, protein, fluids and essential vitamins and minerals. Studies have shown the combination of carbs and protein combined speeds up the transport of these macronutrients to the muscles.
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:03 AM   #28
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I take nutrition very seriously as well. I take into account that the body is only primed, and essentially begging for simple protein and very simple sugars immediately after a workout. In fact, the only time I feel a simple sugar is a good thing is immediately after a workout, and this is specifically to a very simple sugar so that the body loads the starving muscles quickly in order to prevent catabolism, and make the most of that hard work I just put in. A very good alternative to dextrose would be 10-12 oz of orange juice or grape juice mixed with the protein. I would recommend using a vanilla flavored protein so you get more of a creamsicle sort of flavor.

If I wait, or provide the body with a harder to digest carb, then risk missing the window altogether, or catching a less than prime time.

Thats all man.

If your really into eating healthy. You might try replacing your oats with quinoa, lacing your quinoa breakfast with walnuts and blueberries, or perhaps raspberries, a banana depending on whats available.

You might also consider uping your calcium intake (you would be surprised how important calcium is, as well as its benefits), replacing flax with fish oils, as they are known to lower working and resting heart rate with otherwise the same benefits of flax. And some sort of Glucosamine Chondroitin supplement.
I don't take oats or quinoa. My shake already contains multiple fruits (banana, peach, cherries, blackberries, blueberries and goji), something I consider quite superior to empty dextrose. That shake is taken before I hop into the shower after workouts. I already take fish oil daily, as well as glucosamine. My calcium intake is rather high, because I eat loads of whole foods rich on minerals.

Funny, you kinda adviced me what has been my stance throughout this thread. Replacing foods low on nutrients by richer ones.
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:04 AM   #29
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You are absolutely right about just taking protein after a workout, that would have no where near the same beneficial effects as a balance meal containing carbs, protein, fluids and essential vitamins and minerals. Studies have shown the combination of carbs and protein combined speeds up the transport of these macronutrients to the muscles.
I think that combination is perfect in natural foods. They also contain nutrients that have not (yet) shown to be beneficial. In time supplements and meal replacers will as well. I'm not against supplements, I use them as well. Some people just put too much trust in them, they are less good than whole natural foods, not better because of the "science" behind them. I use fish oil because I can't afford fish daily, and glucosamine because I hate eating creatures with shells.
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:45 AM   #30
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After i exercise i usually have eggs and fish like salmon as i do it in the morning.

Is this adequate?
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