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Old 02-27-2009, 04:04 AM   #31
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

A few places outside of the top 10, just behind Foreman (who also doesn't make my 10).
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:44 AM   #32
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

i'm not a fan of dempsey at all and don't understand how you could expect a 188lb fighter from 80 odd years ago to compete with a modern heavy at 230lb.he once called joe louis glass chinned , but spent as much time on his arse as joe did
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:54 AM   #33
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

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Originally Posted by Russell View Post
You know what you're talking about for once. I'm impressed.

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If you want to learn about Dempsey read Randy Roberts book, Dempsey's autobiography ,written with his wife is good too.
This is the same Randy Roberts whose book Papa Jack ,about Jack Johnson was the basis for 90% of Unforgiveable Blackness, the documentary you tried to lecture me on ,some time ago.Where you ended up calling me the forums' whatever, you remember Charley.


"It was you Charley ,it was allways you ,you was my brother Charley,you should have looked out for me a little bit".

PS How's the sports shop going Charley?
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:03 AM   #34
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Losing the title to an ex-light heavyweight is not a valid criticism. How many heavyweights were technically light-heavyweights at one time?
But "technically" is not an issue here. Tunney was a career LHW, not a HW who was "technically" a LHW. That was his division.

Losing a title to a LHW is a rarity. That's because LHW's moving into the bigger division are not successful, traditionally. Tunney might have matured into a "full sized heavyweight" but it's hard to be sure because he did so little in the division. You might be right though, it might not be fair to write a list with that on it, especially given that Tunney was so good, but it's fair, at least, to ask "why?"
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:14 AM   #35
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

marciano and lewis is ahead of him..but he ranks higher that holyfield, holmes and foreman
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:17 AM   #36
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"PS How's the sports shop going Charley?
Mcvey, you have Jack at #3 - who do you have beating him head to head?
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:20 AM   #37
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Where do you rank Jack Dempsey in all time HW rankings? Who is in front of him, and who is behind? What are your arguments, which achievments gave him ATG status? Can he be considered #3 HW ever?
While itís true Dempsey lacks a win over another all time great heavyweight, and he has some shady outcomes in some of his most famous matches, I believe he has done enough to rank as a top all time 10 heavyweights.

Hereís why I beleive Dempsey should be highly rated:

*Power. Dempsey was a true two fisted puncher, with knockout power in both the cross and the hook. Many punchers only have fight ending power in one hand. With Dempsey, once he landed his best, the other guy often went down quickly, and shortly after that was O-U-T. Dempsey was not an attrition type of puncher like Marciano or Frazier was in most cases. Dempsey carried his power well into the later rounds too.

*Size and Style. Dempsey was an aggressive swarmer / stalker type who excelled as both an out fighter, and an in-fighter. He worked the head and the body equally well and could string together combinations. At 6í1 1/2Ē, and 77Ē of reach, Dempsey was by no means a short or limited reach type of fighter. While a prime Dempsey weighed about 188 pounds in the 1920ís, he had no trouble knocking out modern sized heavyweights, and some of them had top chins. Dempsey had the frame to properly carry about 205-210 pounds.

*Speed, reflexes, and agility. Dempsey had excellent hand speed, good reflexes, and unusually quick feet in comparison to all great heavyweights. He could move forward, backwards, or in a circular motion to get angles on others fighter. Most punchers just arenít this fast with their hands or their feet, nor can they circle or get angles then attack the way Dempsey could. Dempsey has a speed advantage over most sluggers, a reach and height advantage over most swarmers, and the footwork speed to catch up to the deluxe boxer types. When you combine this with his power and aggressive nature, you have a unique type of fighter.

*Chin. Dempsey has one KO loss in 83 fights. This is very good. Dempsey fought a few good punchers. He survived a chin checking shot vs Fripo, and a pasting from Jack Sharkey. Dempsey was not a chinny puncher at all.

*Heart and will to win. Dempsey proved he had a ton of heart in the Fripo match, and would do what it took to win. The hardest place fight is in the clinches. In the clinches, Dempsey was at home. In fact he was pure hell.

* Stamina. A prime Dempsey had true 15 round stamina.

* Defense. Dempsey had a very good slip and duck type of defense, which can be seen on film. Most swarmer types who prefer to attack do not have this good of a defense.

* Ring record. 66-6-11 at Box rec. The losses to Tunney were vs another all time great when Dempsey was past his best. One of those losses to Tunney is marred by ď the long count ď, which might have been a KO win for Dempsey if there was no problem with the count. Besides the Tunney losses, Dempsey lost to Flynn. The Flynn loss was avenged via KO. Dempsey never lost a match scheduled for 6 rounds or more. Had the Meehan fights been 10 round affairs, Dempsey likely wins via TKO late. Meehan was a cheese type of fighter who moved, covered up and came back with slapping type of punches.

* Quality wins. Dempsey holds wins over Fripo, Willard, J. Sharkey, Gibbons, Carpentier, Brennan, Miske, Gunboat Smith, Morris, Levinsky, Fulton, and Pelky. Dempsey owns a KO win over all these ranked fighters, except for Gibbons who ran for 15 rounds.

*Historical opinions. Dempsey is a highly rated fighter to this day. Boxing historians, mangers, referees, promoters, fighters, and fans who saw Dempsey rated him in the top 3 in the 1940ís, 1950ís, and 1960ís and 1970ís. In 2007 the IBRO, a group of boxing historians gave Dempsey their #4 spot in the top 20 among heavyweights. While I think these rating might be a trifle high, they do speak volumes about opinions on Dempsey in multiple decades.

*Film. There is no doubt Dempsey had some speical performances on film in the ring, and in sparring session that live up to his legendary status. Not all old timers perform on film as good as their legend suggests they should have. While the film quality on Dempsey isnít smooth or crystal clear, we can get a good feel for what he was about.

I have Dempsey around #7-#9.
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:48 AM   #38
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

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Mcvey, you have Jack at #3 - who do you have beating him head to head?
Look my Hibernian friend, I'm not going to convince you ,and you are not going to convert me, but, you are a great poster who deserves respect so I will give you a name. JOE LOUIS,DEMPSEY KNOCKS OUT LOUIS INSIDE 2 ROUNDS.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:04 AM   #39
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Look my Hibernian friend, I'm not going to convince you ,and you are not going to convert me, but, you are a great poster who deserves respect so I will give you a name. JOE LOUIS,DEMPSEY KNOCKS OUT LOUIS INSIDE 2 ROUNDS.
Thanks for that, i'm fond of your posts too.

There might actually be more common ground than you think between us as regards Dempsey in a head to head sense. I rate him much higher head to head than I do on ATG lists. I have him at the bottom end of a great HW list, probably some ten places below yourself, but he'd be in the middle of the pack head to head. Guys I thin he would beat who I rank above him include Marciano, Jeffries, Holyfield and I think he would be in 50.50 fights with guys like Frazier and Tyson. I disagree with you that he would beat Louis, but I don't consider it a ridiculous pick or anything...

That's part of the reason I have such difficult with Jack. He could have been so much greater. You kind of rate him where he could have been, IMO, had he done everything that was there for him to do! And there is always the possibility that an active Dempsey who had startched guys like Langford, Wills and Greb could have beaten Tunney. Shame.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:19 AM   #40
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Thanks for that, i'm fond of your posts too.

There might actually be more common ground than you think between us as regards Dempsey in a head to head sense. I rate him much higher head to head than I do on ATG lists. I have him at the bottom end of a great HW list, probably some ten places below yourself, but he'd be in the middle of the pack head to head. Guys I thin he would beat who I rank above him include Marciano, Jeffries, Holyfield and I think he would be in 50.50 fights with guys like Frazier and Tyson. I disagree with you that he would beat Louis, but I don't consider it a ridiculous pick or anything...

That's part of the reason I have such difficult with Jack. He could have been so much greater. You kind of rate him where he could have been, IMO, had he done everything that was there for him to do! And there is always the possibility that an active Dempsey who had startched guys like Langford, Wills and Greb could have beaten Tunney. Shame.
Dempsey is my favourite ,despite what Mendoza thinks, so I'm probably guilty of some wishful fancies regarding his head to head success. I think Jack would overwhelm Louis ,who is technically the superior fighter,and the longer the fight went the greater would be Joe's chances imo.
Dream slug out? DEMPSEY V MARCIANO.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:26 AM   #41
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

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I'm sorry, Dempsey is probably my favorite fighter of all time, but I don't think you can just give him a free pass on his inactivity. Maybe for not fighting Wills, but you can't say that Dempsey couldn't have been fighting more. He took a total of 5 whole years off during his title reign. It's true that Rickard and Kearns didn't want him to fight too often, but taking off 5 years, from a reign that lasted seven, that's a bit extreme.
Not a pass, but just recognising the situation he created.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:29 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
Dempsey is my favourite ,despite what Mendoza thinks, so I'm probably guilty of some wishful fancies regarding his head to head success. I think Jack would overwhelm Louis ,who is technically the superior fighter,and the longer the fight went the greater would be Joe's chances imo.
Dream slug out? DEMPSEY V MARCIANO.
The fight I would like to see Jack in more than any other (after Wills ) would be Foreman. I think Dempsey's footwork is as good as we've seen at HW, and I'd love to watch his style match with the brutish Foreman. I pick him to win it, too.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:48 AM   #43
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

dempsey beats foreman does he,whats he armed with?
louis would KO dempsey,he's bigger ,hits harder , better jab ,faster.
other heavies who would beat dempsey are
ali,foreman,frazier,holmes,liston,lennox lewis and i'd give charles and walcott an even chance.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:51 AM   #44
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

I think Walcott is a horrible fight for Dempsey, but I pick him over Charles all day long.
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:58 AM   #45
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Default Re: Jacks Dempsey ranking - arguments

michael spinks and billy conn would give dempsey good fights too.
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