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Old 08-21-2007, 12:05 AM   #31
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

hagler was shot. i could tell before the fight when i saw him in sparring so i'm the only one who can honestly evaluate him unlike the closet leonard fans/Hagler haters. I am not some fraud that plagues the forums claiming to have had dinner with John Conteh or Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns.

Before I get too far off the topic, I must agree with the scores in favor of Hagler because as in the Hearns fight, Leonard didn't win enough of the rounds.

Although I will agree with Leonard that the slowness of Hagler helped him tremendously, Hagler didn't have the stamina problem that afflicted Hearns and so it went the distance in what appeared to be a close fight to fans who are easily decieved. Had it been Norris in the ring with Leonard that day, there would have been no controversy as Terry would have simply outsped him on route to a lopsided win.

Back to the fight.

No way did leonard take the first round. Any honest person has to admit the round was even as neither man did enough to win the round. In reality, Ray could do no better than take the second and 4th. third was even. That makes two even and two for leonard.

Hagler takes rd. 5, 7 (close), and 8th round a bit more convincingly.

Leonard takes 6 and 9 is even in a struggle.

That leaves three rounds left. The fight is close and up for grabs.

An extremely faded and sluggish Hagler manages to take rd. 10,11.

Hagler now has 5 rounds. 3 rounds are even and leonard has only won three and IMO has already lost but this is Vegas and with 1 round remaining, if Leonard takes it, could steal the fight.

leonard in fact does take much of the final round (IMO) but like Leonard had done earlier in the fight, Hagler finishes the round strongly and manages to steal it.

Hagler wins the round and the fight itself.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:17 AM   #32
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

I had Hagler winning 116-113.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:30 AM   #33
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantequilla
Most of that was opinion and not fact.
These are not opinions: the number of punches landed by either fighter did not differ significantly (Leonard landed maybe a dozen more), although Hagler threw a lot more leather; Hagler was the aggressor and landed the harder punches; Leonard made the clinches and broke off the action; Leonard was shoeshining and slapping (as well as fouling); Hagler was pressing the action throughout, whereas Leonard was fighting in spurts; Hagler was never hurt in the fight, but Leonard was staggered more than once.

From these facts I arrive at this opinion: Leonard did not win this fight.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:41 AM   #34
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

Not only that Lethal but it is also true that much of what Leonard threw was clearly caught on the gloves of Hagler and that's why I scored it the way I did. Celebs at ringside don't notice things like that and they don't care. They just want him to win..period.
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Old 08-21-2007, 02:49 AM   #35
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

Look i just wanted to add these two things.

* im a big believer in the Challenger needs to take the belt of the Champ but yet Hagler was the one who made the fight.

* How do i mean made the fight if Hagler didnt come foward and press the offence there wouldnt have been a fight just like the Dela Hoya - Mayweather fight.

I truely believe that the fight was close but i dont agree with Leonard doing enough to take the belt off the champ like many said especially when it was Leonard walking backwards all night.

Just having a say.
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Old 08-21-2007, 03:20 AM   #36
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

I can live with a 7-5 scorecard for Hagler. Any more and you are pushing it. However I call it 7-5 Leonard. He took Hagler out of his comfort zone and was the ring general. In terms of offence and defence the punch stats speak for themself.
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Old 08-21-2007, 03:32 AM   #37
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

The best verdict you can give to Hagler is that he loses this fight by two rounds. I've scored it numerous times and I've yet to score it as a Hagler victory, even a draw is slightly generous. Leonard was the agressor during those very close rounds.
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Old 08-21-2007, 06:01 AM   #38
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holmes' Jab
The best verdict you can give to Hagler is that he loses this fight by two rounds. I've scored it numerous times and I've yet to score it as a Hagler victory, even a draw is slightly generous. Leonard was the agressor during those very close rounds.
A man who tells it like it is

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Old 08-21-2007, 06:37 PM   #39
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

Hagler deserved to win it unless you want to score Leonard punches that land on Hagler's gloves.

Hagler won it, but it was close, IMO. He fought a lousy fight but he still deserved to win. Leonard fought beyond all expectation but he didn't get enough done to merit that verdict.

People who score for Leonard must be operating with a radically different criteria to mine.

I can admire flamboyant spoiling, evasive footwork and survival techniques from a tactical standpoint much as the next man but I cant give rounds to a fighter on account of him landing flurries of amateurish taps to the opponent's gloves and doing the backpedalling and showboating. The spoiling and neutralising needs to be backed up with substance, proactive scoring. At the same time, I dont credit Hagler for the moments he's plodding forward hesistantly and missing wildly, I dont give him credit for any of his inept "aggression".

Both fighters need to be credited only for the real punches they land on legitimate target areas. Watch how such punches are delivered and spread in each individual round and the scoring is not too difficult.
Leonard simply didn't do enough legitimate scoring in enough of Hagler's bad rounds (and there's no denying Hagler was pretty bad in many of the rounds) to capitalize.

Hagler should have been declared the winner. Not by a landslide by any means, but it's a clear Hagler win when you discard the chaff and score the substance.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:53 PM   #40
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

Both Red Rooster and Sonny's Jab make an excellent point about the quality of Leonard's punches. He did a lot of hitting Hagler's gloves. I should have included that in my analysis. You can't win fights unless you land clean, hard punches on legitimate target areas. Leonard didn't do much of that.
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:21 PM   #41
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

I had Hagler winning 115-113. If you want to take the title from somebody you've got to do more than Leonard did. The fight basically validated that Hagler would beat Leonard by a wider margin in his prime. Hagler was slow and he still caught Leonard in the middle round's. Hagler's punches were still more effective and he hurt Leonard at the end of the 12th.
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Old 08-22-2007, 05:18 AM   #42
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Default Re: SRL Vs Marvin Hagler My verdict is in

Not seen the fight for a while but I've always scored it by about 2 rounds for Leonard. It didn't help that Hagler did hardly anything for the first 4 rounds. I also take on board the lack of quality of Leonard's punches but IMO Hagler just did not work hard enough or perhaps couldn't because he was too slow. You could see numerous occasions where Hagler had openings but just could not get the shots off quickly enough. That was a consistent pattern throughout the fight.

115-113 in favour of Leonard is about right in my book.
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