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Old 03-03-2009, 09:15 AM   #1
Primadonna Kool
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Default Lactate Range.

Training in the lactate range is for bad people, who actually enjoy pain. I know this first hand, from my days years ago on the track. The baddest people mentally and strongest i have ever come across where middle distance runners. The reason why i am talking about Lactate Acid, is it's relation to Fast Twitch Muscle fibre's.

Is it possible, to gain mass, condition the muscle i.e endurance, both at the same time.

I know it is possible, and it's all about training in the lactate range.
  • Lactate Acids is a bi product of the Anaerobic Lactic system. It's actually used for energy, but that's another topic. Basically you can tell when you are using this energy system, when you start to feel lactate acid. Which most of the time is after about 40sec's of High Intensity work.
  • But what is happening, well Lactate Acid is mostly produced by Fast Twitch Fibre's, so when you start to feel that burn, it means your fast twitch fibres have been recruited, and they are being fatigued. So you have just done 40seconds or so of high intensity work/condition and now your fast twitch fibres the fibres that Hypertrophy more easily than slow twitch. Hypertrophy is what all body builders want, it is what they need to gain mass. But boxers, or multi sport athlete's don't just want mass, they want functional muscle.
  • By using light weights, i believe you can condition the muscle, gain mass. It's all about training in the lactate range, and i might just applie this method to afew exercises. Bench Press, Lunges etc
  • Instead of using a heavy weight, i will use 60kg on the bench press. And rep it out until failure, until i feel that lactate acid. Then i will rest for 1 minute, by the time i come to the next set my muscles will be flooded with Lactate.
  • This is the range where i want to stay, because it means my fast twitch fibres are being fatigued. It's Lactate threshold training, it is conditioning, and you will gain quality..quality mass, which is versatile and can do damage.
And it will rip you up....so much...you will bleed.
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

As a boxer you need to though.
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:46 AM   #3
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

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As a boxer you need to though.
excalty...........

mentally it's hard, but it will benefit you more.
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Old 03-03-2009, 09:51 AM   #4
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

I actually enjoy it. Nothing satisfies more than getting that second wind.
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Old 03-03-2009, 04:33 PM   #5
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

Good reading that PK.....Very interesting .
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Old 09-16-2012, 02:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primadonna Kool View Post
Training in the lactate range is for bad people, who actually enjoy pain. I know this first hand, from my days years ago on the track. The baddest people mentally and strongest i have ever come across where middle distance runners. The reason why i am talking about Lactate Acid, is it's relation to Fast Twitch Muscle fibre's.

Is it possible, to gain mass, condition the muscle i.e endurance, both at the same time.

I know it is possible, and it's all about training in the lactate range.
  • Lactate Acids is a bi product of the Anaerobic Lactic system. It's actually used for energy, but that's another topic. Basically you can tell when you are using this energy system, when you start to feel lactate acid. Which most of the time is after about 40sec's of High Intensity work.
  • But what is happening, well Lactate Acid is mostly produced by Fast Twitch Fibre's, so when you start to feel that burn, it means your fast twitch fibres have been recruited, and they are being fatigued. So you have just done 40seconds or so of high intensity work/condition and now your fast twitch fibres the fibres that Hypertrophy more easily than slow twitch. Hypertrophy is what all body builders want, it is what they need to gain mass. But boxers, or multi sport athlete's don't just want mass, they want functional muscle.
  • By using light weights, i believe you can condition the muscle, gain mass. It's all about training in the lactate range, and i might just applie this method to afew exercises. Bench Press, Lunges etc
  • Instead of using a heavy weight, i will use 60kg on the bench press. And rep it out until failure, until i feel that lactate acid. Then i will rest for 1 minute, by the time i come to the next set my muscles will be flooded with Lactate.
  • This is the range where i want to stay, because it means my fast twitch fibres are being fatigued. It's Lactate threshold training, it is conditioning, and you will gain quality..quality mass, which is versatile and can do damage.
And it will rip you up....so much...you will bleed.
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:21 PM   #7
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

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Originally Posted by Primadonna Kool View Post
Got something thats even Better than that, nice read. .
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Old 09-16-2012, 07:34 PM   #8
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primadonna Kool View Post
Training in the lactate range is for bad people, who actually enjoy pain. I know this first hand, from my days years ago on the track. The baddest people mentally and strongest i have ever come across where middle distance runners. The reason why i am talking about Lactate Acid, is it's relation to Fast Twitch Muscle fibre's.

Is it possible, to gain mass, condition the muscle i.e endurance, both at the same time.

I know it is possible, and it's all about training in the lactate range.
  • Lactate Acids is a bi product of the Anaerobic Lactic system. It's actually used for energy, but that's another topic. Basically you can tell when you are using this energy system, when you start to feel lactate acid. Which most of the time is after about 40sec's of High Intensity work.
  • But what is happening, well Lactate Acid is mostly produced by Fast Twitch Fibre's, so when you start to feel that burn, it means your fast twitch fibres have been recruited, and they are being fatigued. So you have just done 40seconds or so of high intensity work/condition and now your fast twitch fibres the fibres that Hypertrophy more easily than slow twitch. Hypertrophy is what all body builders want, it is what they need to gain mass. But boxers, or multi sport athlete's don't just want mass, they want functional muscle.
  • By using light weights, i believe you can condition the muscle, gain mass. It's all about training in the lactate range, and i might just applie this method to afew exercises. Bench Press, Lunges etc
  • Instead of using a heavy weight, i will use 60kg on the bench press. And rep it out until failure, until i feel that lactate acid. Then i will rest for 1 minute, by the time i come to the next set my muscles will be flooded with Lactate.
  • This is the range where i want to stay, because it means my fast twitch fibres are being fatigued. It's Lactate threshold training, it is conditioning, and you will gain quality..quality mass, which is versatile and can do damage.
And it will rip you up....so much...you will bleed.
thats a nice read, can anyone confirm, a source and such? Honestly believe though doing both would be great but thats just some bro science from me. I always think its better for the body to do multiple things like instead of just running, do sprints too. Could be wrong though, again no science to back it up just works for me.
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Old 09-16-2012, 07:41 PM   #9
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

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Originally Posted by r1p00pk View Post
thats a nice read, can anyone confirm, a source and such? Honestly believe though doing both would be great but thats just some bro science from me. I always think its better for the body to do multiple things like instead of just running, do sprints too. Could be wrong though, again no science to back it up just works for me.
I wrote it!

If you understand how the human body works, and what is actually happening to muscles! You can create you're own workouts.

Only! Fast Twitch Fibres create Latic Acid.

This type of workout protocol would build strength endurance specifically.

Also full body routines are better than split routines, if i was a boxer.

I would do 2 full body routines, and 1 upper body routine....per week.

"You are right, it is better to do multiple things during training...........builds a better athlete!"
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Old 09-16-2012, 09:33 PM   #10
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

Thanks for the post PK. Full body weight routines and lower/upper splits work better not only for boxers wishing to use a weight program but most natural bodybuilders also.

I agree PK that it is very possible to gain muscle mass as well as muscle endurance. Most bodybuilders have good type I and type II fibers just because of the nature of their training. The problem is that most of their cardiac efficiency is so bad that their hearts can't efficiently pump blood to the working muscles. Their cardiovascular system fatigues far before muscle fatigue.

Repping out bench press, shoulder press, curls, speed bag and so forth would be great for localized fatigue.

I however would not use weights to train boxers. I would use more bands and plyometrics work and have them train some in this energy system but the majority in the aerobic energy system.

If anyone likes this kind of stuff Joel Jamieson has a website called [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. He trains MMA fighters but their is a good crossover with all combat sports. I have his book called Ultimate MMA Conditioning and it changed everything with how I thought about training. He doesn't give canned programs, but gives a very thorough breakdown of each energy system and block training format and tells the reader how to develop their own programs for their own needs.

He also explains quite well the advantages of Long Slow Distance training, which is not the end all but is put down these days.
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:02 AM   #11
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

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Originally Posted by TVLPC View Post
Thanks for the post PK. Full body weight routines and lower/upper splits work better not only for boxers wishing to use a weight program but most natural bodybuilders also.

I agree PK that it is very possible to gain muscle mass as well as muscle endurance. Most bodybuilders have good type I and type II fibers just because of the nature of their training. The problem is that most of their cardiac efficiency is so bad that their hearts can't efficiently pump blood to the working muscles. Their cardiovascular system fatigues far before muscle fatigue.

Repping out bench press, shoulder press, curls, speed bag and so forth would be great for localized fatigue.

I however would not use weights to train boxers. I would use more bands and plyometrics work and have them train some in this energy system but the majority in the aerobic energy system.

If anyone likes this kind of stuff Joel Jamieson has a website called [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. He trains MMA fighters but their is a good crossover with all combat sports. I have his book called Ultimate MMA Conditioning and it changed everything with how I thought about training. He doesn't give canned programs, but gives a very thorough breakdown of each energy system and block training format and tells the reader how to develop their own programs for their own needs.

He also explains quite well the advantages of Long Slow Distance training, which is not the end all but is put down these days.
Now you can do both at the same Time Aerobic and Anaerobic, theres a crossover
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:29 PM   #12
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primadonna Kool View Post
I wrote it!

If you understand how the human body works, and what is actually happening to muscles! You can create you're own workouts.

Only! Fast Twitch Fibres create Latic Acid.

This type of workout protocol would build strength endurance specifically.

Also full body routines are better than split routines, if i was a boxer.

I would do 2 full body routines, and 1 upper body routine....per week.

"You are right, it is better to do multiple things during training...........builds a better athlete!"

appreciate it! it does make sence now that i think of it, ill be incorporating more max reps onto my workout.
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TVLPC View Post
Thanks for the post PK. Full body weight routines and lower/upper splits work better not only for boxers wishing to use a weight program but most natural bodybuilders also.

I agree PK that it is very possible to gain muscle mass as well as muscle endurance. Most bodybuilders have good type I and type II fibers just because of the nature of their training. The problem is that most of their cardiac efficiency is so bad that their hearts can't efficiently pump blood to the working muscles. Their cardiovascular system fatigues far before muscle fatigue.

Repping out bench press, shoulder press, curls, speed bag and so forth would be great for localized fatigue.

I however would not use weights to train boxers. I would use more bands and plyometrics work and have them train some in this energy system but the majority in the aerobic energy system.

If anyone likes this kind of stuff Joel Jamieson has a website called [Only registered and activated users can see links. ]. He trains MMA fighters but their is a good crossover with all combat sports. I have his book called Ultimate MMA Conditioning and it changed everything with how I thought about training. He doesn't give canned programs, but gives a very thorough breakdown of each energy system and block training format and tells the reader how to develop their own programs for their own needs.

He also explains quite well the advantages of Long Slow Distance training, which is not the end all but is put down these days.
Plyometrics are overrated and dangerous, the only form of plyometrics and the ultimate form of plyometrics is sprinting.

There's nothing wrong with combining Weights & Circuits. I don't know why people have a medevil stance against weight training, it's totally retarded.

Why would you train a boxer in the aerobic energy range "And that's it?" but it depends on what you mean by that exactly. When all the movements and attacks in the ring are anaerobic, you cannot ignore certain area's. A boxing fight is basically a violent high intensity interval session.

You can also train you aerobic energy system, while training you're anerorbic energy system at the VERY SAME TIME. The slower you move, the more of the aerobic energy system you are using, the more intense a exercise! That's when you're body surpasses the power of the aerobic energy system.................."It does not mean, you have not used you're aerobic energy system"

During a interval session, when you recover inbetween sets it's you're aerobic energy system which helps you recover.

High Intensity Interval sessions are more beneficial for boxers, for improving V02MAX, which basically is the king when you want to talk about aerobic fitness.

You can run 12 miles, but you're heart rate won't be in V02MAX range. So what is the point...?

Run one rep of 200m at 90%, and then go and check you're heart rate..? The odds are that it will be in the V02max range!

Now you have got 1min 30seconds rest and you have to it again.

So if you work it out, during a interval session a large portion of the session. You're heart rate will be in V02max range.

Aerobic high-intensity intervals improve VO2max more than moderate training.

The reason why they call it, high intensity aerobic training. Is because like i said, when you are recovering in between reps of high intensity, it's your aerobic energy system which works hard to help you recover.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

You see allot of old people running marathons slow and steady big ****ing deal. Long slow distance training is overrated, if you want to perform a low intensity exercise for a long period of time, its good.

But boxing is not low intensity.

I can remember when i smashed all the boxers during a bleep test, and i never used to do any long runs. Just interval training on the track, with my athletics group.

If you understand how the human body works, you won't buy into all the bullshit you read.

That guy up there basically is just preying on people, that don't have a clue how the human body works. That's my opinion anyway from what i know, during training you do what's right for you!.......So i am not saying you are wrong!!!

Slow Aerobic exercise is beneficial on recovery days, that's about it.

Last edited by Primadonna Kool; 09-17-2012 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:28 PM   #14
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

Also, apart from making the muscles larger, or more efficient, you also want to improve the whole lactate cycle where the muscles' waste product, Lactic Acid, is recycled to produce more Glycogen, to power the muscles again.

After strenuous muscle use, like in a sprint, or sustained power-punching combinations, the muscles local fuel store of Glycogen is used up. The waste product is Lactic Acid. The heart then pumps extra hard to send blood to remove the Lactic Acid and get it to the liver where it gets processed into Glycogen again. The heart keeps pumping extra hard to transport the new energy supply back to the depleted muscles so they can keep up their violent contractions.

An untrained person can full blast a muscle for no more than 20 seconds before it craps out. Then it may take more than 3 to 4 minutes to recover, if at all. So, it pays to make that energy system more efficient and long lasting.

So, if you're doing sprints, you'd want to increase the amount of time the muscle can go full blast by increasing the duration of the sprints. Also, decrease the time that it takes to recover, or in other words, increase the efficiency of a) the liver at converting lactic acid to glycogen and b) the heart's ability to pump the blood to transport everything to it's rightful places. This would be done by decreasing rest periods between sprints.

A sample program might be to:
- start with 20 second sprints with 1 minute rest (walking/jogging)
- increase the number of sprints to a target number (say 8 )
- start decreasing rest time to 45 sec, then to 30 sec, then to 15 sec
- instead of going to 0 sec, then increase duration to 40 sec sprints w 1 min rest
- repeat cycle, etc...
- after reaching 90 second sprints, you have a monster
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Old 09-17-2012, 10:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: Lactate Range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Primadonna Kool View Post
Plyometrics are overrated and dangerous, the only form of plyometrics and the ultimate form of plyometrics is sprinting.

There's nothing wrong with combining Weights & Circuits. I don't know why people have a medevil stance against weight training, it's totally retarded.

Why would you train a boxer in the aerobic energy range "And that's it?" but it depends on what you mean by that exactly. When all the movements and attacks in the ring are anaerobic, you cannot ignore certain area's. A boxing fight is basically a violent high intensity interval session.

You can also train you aerobic energy system, while training you're anerorbic energy system at the VERY SAME TIME. The slower you move, the more of the aerobic energy system you are using, the more intense a exercise! That's when you're body surpasses the power of the aerobic energy system.................."It does not mean, you have not used you're aerobic energy system"

During a interval session, when you recover inbetween sets it's you're aerobic energy system which helps you recover.

High Intensity Interval sessions are more beneficial for boxers, for improving V02MAX, which basically is the king when you want to talk about aerobic fitness.

You can run 12 miles, but you're heart rate won't be in V02MAX range. So what is the point...?

Run one rep of 200m at 90%, and then go and check you're heart rate..? The odds are that it will be in the V02max range!

Now you have got 1min 30seconds rest and you have to it again.

So if you work it out, during a interval session a large portion of the session. You're heart rate will be in V02max range.

Aerobic high-intensity intervals improve VO2max more than moderate training.

The reason why they call it, high intensity aerobic training. Is because like i said, when you are recovering in between reps of high intensity, it's your aerobic energy system which works hard to help you recover.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

You see allot of old people running marathons slow and steady big ****ing deal. Long slow distance training is overrated, if you want to perform a low intensity exercise for a long period of time, its good.

But boxing is not low intensity.

I can remember when i smashed all the boxers during a bleep test, and i never used to do any long runs. Just interval training on the track, with my athletics group.

If you understand how the human body works, you won't buy into all the bullshit you read.

That guy up there basically is just preying on people, that don't have a clue how the human body works. That's my opinion anyway from what i know, during training you do what's right for you!.......So i am not saying you are wrong!!!

Slow Aerobic exercise is beneficial on recovery days, that's about it.

If somebody is in shape, then yes LSD training is good for active recovery and more intense methods can and should be used. As I said, "it's not the end all be all" but does have a purpose. There are some cardiac adaptations that happen from this method that does have a purpose different than other intense methods, while there are adaptations doing a 60-90 sec all out effort that are necessary for boxers and other combat athletes as well that LSD cannot do.

Yes, the act of punching is anaerobic and yes, it is possible to train both at the same time. I guess what I should have said is that I would train most of my boxers under anaerobic threshold for the most part and use tabata intervals, cardiac power intervals, and so forth sparingly due to the nature of boxing and the intensity of these methods. I have always felt that if you are sparring, doing bag work with a purpose and intensity, a lot of your conditioning can take care of itself. I would not tell somebody to hit a bag with 30% intensity, keeping training aerobic. That would be stupid unless they were coming off an injury.

The reason I state that the aerobic energy system is something I would work most exclusively on is because it is the energy system that works "behind the scenes" so to speak to help to eliminate the anaerobic byproducts and consistently "replenish" that energy system. The better the aerobic system, the better the anaerobic system can work to punch/kick/takedown, whatever more times. Yes, the methods you described are excellent, as are threshold training, fartlek, etc. which all have there place. The fittest I ever got was doing a 2 month training block with threshold training on Jacob's Ladder 2 x week, 1 day traditional intervals along with 2 days of LSD work along with 3 days of sparring 5-8 rounds but had to build a good aerobic base to do so, which I did using less intense methods. Hitting a bag/sparring is an interval of anaerobic(throwing combinations, jabs, and so forth) combined with aerobic(stepping around, rest in between combinations, rest in between rounds, and so forth). This does not mean I don't believe in using methods training the anaerobic-lactic energy system, I would just use them more sparingly than others on the board use.

As for weights, yes I use them and feel it is great for resistance, and no, there is nothing wrong with weight circuits. That being said, I feel that weights provide typically only movement across a vertical plane and bands can allow for movement across a horizontal plane which is what most sports utilize to a larger degree. Yes, doing high depth jumps and heavy shock type intervals can be very taxing on the Central Nervous System and should be used sparingly and programmed intelligently but bounding, hops, plyos with low to moderate levels of intensity can be very helpful with a low risk of injury if done properly.

Hopefully this better explains my position. If I am wrong I will absolutely concede and have no problem learning something new. Although it is hard to tell a person's character over an internet forum, I am the last person who would ever prey on anyone or purposely tell people wrong for my own "fun." That would serve me no purpose whatsoever.

PK, My intention was not to be offensive, I just had some different thoughts than you, and many of the same, even if it didn't come across this way in the post.
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