Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

[AnthonyJ74]

Originally Posted by Cojimar 1945

The main issue regarding Holmes challengers is that he failed to face many of the most deserving contenders and some of his challengers were less deserving than guys he failed to face.

Exactly! To an unbiased observer that should be plain to see.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by AnthonyJ74

Exactly! To an unbiased observer that should be plain to see.

It's not biased to take a middle of the road approach and acknowledge the pluses as well as the minuses. To lean soley in the direction that his reign was weak and that all of his opponents were underacheivers, is biased in and of itself.

[AnthonyJ74]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

It's not biased to take a middle of the road approach and acknowledge the pluses as well as the minuses. To lean soley in the direction that his reign was weak and that all of his opponents were underacheivers, is biased in and of itself.

I agree. I'm not stating that Holmes' reign was weak overall and that all of his opponents were garbage, I'm just stating that Holmes did not always take on and/or seek out the best possible opponents. I think Holmes was a great fighter, but with most fighters, he had his share of negatives, at least in terms of his opponents. IF Holmes had retired after the Cooney fight, I doubt there would be much anybody could say in regards to Holmes' quality of opposition. It was the last 2-3 years of his reign where it seemed like he was coasting and trying to avoid the more stern challenges.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by AnthonyJ74

So, Scott Frank, Marvis Frazier, Lucien Rodriguez, and Scott Frank were not disappointments? Only Greg Page was? And, what you fail to address is, Greg Page won the elimination fight for the right to fight Holmes. But Page didn't get his shot at Holmes. Why not? You said that David Bey won the fight against Greg Page and was rewarded a shot at Holmes. Why didn't Holmes be so generous when it was Greg Page doing the winning? Especially when it was an eliminator expressly for the purpose of selecting Holmes' next challenger.
Fighting guys who are not well regarded or highly ranked when you are a champion is bad enough. But it's worse when you continue to fight those guys while you have a good, skillful heavyweight waiting in the wings who is your mandatory!

History tells us Greg Page was never a great fighter. In fact I would argue that Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Witherpsoon, and Spinks were better fighters than Page. Holmes fought all of five of them in title shots. At best Page could have been Holmes 6th best opponent, though fans of Cooney, Bonecrucher Smith, and Weaver might argue for the 6th spot.

In my view Page ranks anywhere from 6-10th best of the opponents that Holmes fought in his title defenses up to the second Spinks fight. Champions hardly get any fuss for not fighting the #6, #7, or #8 man when they were champion. Was Page a hot commodity at one time? Sure. Did Page do enough to earn a shot for a lineal championship? I don’t think so. As I mentioned before, Page was rather poor in his high stakes fights. Had Page won a few he lost, or beaten Bey, perhaps Holmes would have given him a shot. It’s not like Page was giving Holmes a Cooney like pay day. Page and Don King offered Holmes a bit more than his normal title defense. This is true. I am not familiar with the particulars of the contract. I know how Don King operates. Surely the contract to fight Page was not in Holmes best interest. So Holmes avoided Page for one fight, than Page proved to be hype. It’s a minor blip. Most popular champions don’t get this type of backlash, but then again I get the feeling Holmes is not too popular here. Lewis gave up belts to Ruiz, and Byrd. Does this diminish Lewis career. Not in my opinion. However those who don’t care for Lewis might see this as ducking.

[Titan1]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

History tells us Greg Page was never a great fighter. In fact I would argue that Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Witherpsoon, and Spinks were better fighters than Page. Holmes fought all of five of them in title shots. At best Page could have been Holmes 6th best opponent, though fans of Cooney, Bonecrucher Smith, and Weaver might argue for the 6th spot.

In my view Page ranks anywhere from 6-10th best of the opponents that Holmes fought in his title defenses up to the second Spinks fight. Champions hardly get any fuss for not fighting the #6, #7, or #8 man when they were champion. Was Page a hot commodity at one time? Sure. Did Page do enough to earn a shot for a lineal championship? I don’t think so. As I mentioned before, Page was rather poor in his high stakes fights. Had Page won a few he lost, or beaten Bey, perhaps Holmes would have given him a shot. It’s not like Page was giving Holmes a Cooney like pay day. Page and Don King offered Holmes a bit more than his normal title defense. This is true. I am not familiar with the particulars of the contract. I know how Don King operates. Surely the contract to fight Page was not in Holmes best interest. So Holmes avoided Page for one fight, than Page proved to be hype. It’s a minor blip. Most popular champions don’t get this type of backlash, but then again I get the feeling Holmes is not too popular here. Lewis gave up belts to Ruiz, and Byrd. Does this diminish Lewis career. Not in my opinion. However those who don’t care for Lewis might see this as ducking.

How about Larry ducked Greg when he really should've fought him.

[Bill1234]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

History tells us Greg Page was never a great fighter. In fact I would argue that Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Witherpsoon, and Spinks were better fighters than Page. Holmes fought all of five of them in title shots. At best Page could have been Holmes 6th best opponent, though fans of Cooney, Bonecrucher Smith, and Weaver might argue for the 6th spot.

In my view Page ranks anywhere from 6-10th best of the opponents that Holmes fought in his title defenses up to the second Spinks fight. Champions hardly get any fuss for not fighting the #6, #7, or #8 man when they were champion. Was Page a hot commodity at one time? Sure. Did Page do enough to earn a shot for a lineal championship? I don’t think so. As I mentioned before, Page was rather poor in his high stakes fights. Had Page won a few he lost, or beaten Bey, perhaps Holmes would have given him a shot. It’s not like Page was giving Holmes a Cooney like pay day. Page and Don King offered Holmes a bit more than his normal title defense. This is true. I am not familiar with the particulars of the contract. I know how Don King operates. Surely the contract to fight Page was not in Holmes best interest. So Holmes avoided Page for one fight, than Page proved to be hype. It’s a minor blip. Most popular champions don’t get this type of backlash, but then again I get the feeling Holmes is not too popular here. Lewis gave up belts to Ruiz, and Byrd. Does this diminish Lewis career. Not in my opinion. However those who don’t care for Lewis might see this as ducking.

Great post.

[Bill1234]

Originally Posted by Titan1

How about Larry ducked Greg when he really should've fought him.

You mean Larry finding out that Page was his mandatory only 1 week before he fought Marvis Frazier. IMO Larry did the smart thing and fought Frazier. He trained for a low risk fight, not one with a top of the line fighter.

[AnthonyJ74]

Originally Posted by Titan1

How about Larry ducked Greg when he really should've fought him.

Short, sweet, and to the point!

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by Bill1234

You mean Larry finding out that Page was his mandatory only 1 week before he fought Marvis Frazier. IMO Larry did the smart thing and fought Frazier. He trained for a low risk fight, not one with a top of the line fighter.

Come on Bill, lets be sane about this. Page - Snipes on the undercard of Holmes - Witherspoon was billed as the eliminator for Holmes mandatory defense. In other words he new as soon as Page - Snipes was publicised if not earlier. Plain irrefutable fact. Even then he refused and the WBC let him fight Frank on the premise that he then fight Page. Finally when he made for Frazier they threatened to take the title off him, and then did.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Originally Posted by Bill1234

You mean Larry finding out that Page was his mandatory only 1 week before he fought Marvis Frazier.

Let's all laugh at the simpleton.

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

Let's all laugh at the simpleton.

How many times does it take

[My dinner with Conteh]

Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

How many times does it take

I know. If Larry's The Mallard, Bill is definitely The Goldfish. He seems to have a memory like one.

[Bummy Davis]

The only thing I would say is look at the other Champs say, Joe Louis,Rocky Marciano,Ali,Even Braddock or Patterson had not fought there top contenders lets say Thomas,Dokes,Page,Coetzee,Tate,Weaver, lets say Louis never unified and HAD OTHERS WHO CALLED THEM SELVES CHAMP, lets say he never rematched Walcott,Godoy,Buddy Baer,Conn. Lets say he had close,disputed decisions that he never rematched, Lets say that he avoided the most dangerous guys for his style, top 5 of the division, Lets say it was Marciano,Lewis,Ali, lets say Braddock avoided Louis and had 5 defences vs 10-0,10-2-2,13-0,14 fight fighters for defences, or lets say Patterson never fought Liston, Ingo. How would you feel about them. A lot of people have blinders on when it comes to Holmes and refuse to see what happened during his rein

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh

I know. If Larry's The Mallard, Bill is definitely The Goldfish. He seems to have a memory like one.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Mendoza
History tells us Greg Page was never a great fighter. In fact I would argue that Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Witherpsoon, and Spinks were better fighters than Page. Holmes fought all of five of them in title shots. At best Page could have been Holmes 6th best opponent, though fans of Cooney, Bonecrucher Smith, and Weaver might argue for the 6th spot.

In my view Page ranks anywhere from 6-10th best of the opponents that Holmes fought in his title defenses up to the second Spinks fight. Champions hardly get any fuss for not fighting the #6, #7, or #8 man when they were champion. Was Page a hot commodity at one time? Sure. Did Page do enough to earn a shot for a lineal championship? I don’t think so. As I mentioned before, Page was rather poor in his high stakes fights. Had Page won a few he lost, or beaten Bey, perhaps Holmes would have given him a shot. It’s not like Page was giving Holmes a Cooney like pay day. Page and Don King offered Holmes a bit more than his normal title defense. This is true. I am not familiar with the particulars of the contract. I know how Don King operates. Surely the contract to fight Page was not in Holmes best interest. So Holmes avoided Page for one fight, than Page proved to be hype. It’s a minor blip. Most popular champions don’t get this type of backlash, but then again I get the feeling Holmes is not too popular here. Lewis gave up belts to Ruiz, and Byrd. Does this diminish Lewis career. Not in my opinion. However those who don’t care for Lewis might see this as ducking.

Originally Posted by Titan1

How about Larry ducked Greg when he really should've fought him.

Are you aware of how many deals and contract offers actually happen before a fight contract is made? Are you aware that corrupt organizations have not only ranked a dead man in the new monthly ratings, and amazingly had the same man move up in rank the next month?

Don King is the reason for the circus on this fight. Without him, this entire Holmes ducked Page business doesn’t see the light of day. If you have the particulars of the terms and conditions of the contract for Holmes vs Page, by all means post it here. I don’t need to look at it. With King, the location, re-match clause, who the judges are, the ring size, and options for who the winner would fight next ( Likely another Don King fighter ) were reasons Holmes declined the fight. It wasn’t all about the money or Page being a terror in the ring. Far from it.

Although Holmes was not a formally educated man, he was smart enough to know what was good for his career. As I chronicled above, Page was hype. Page failed to win his big fights after his brief high alphabet ranking. Several of the fighters Holmes beat also defeated Page. Holmes fought at least five better fighters in title shots.

Boxing missing Holmes vs Page is hardly a super fighter that never was. I’m sure this board could name at least 50 heavyweight fights that never happened that were of more interest. Do you agree, Titan1?

PS: Does anyone know who Holmes would have fought next if he beat Spinks in the first fight?