Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

 
  


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-23-2007, 07:42 AM   #61
My dinner with Conteh
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,999
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
PS: Does anyone know who Holmes would have fought next if he beat Spinks in the first fight?

He was pencilled in to meet his mandatory, Daffy Duck, in March '86 but he priced himself out.
My dinner with Conteh is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:06 AM   #62
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 13,613
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
PS: Does anyone know who Holmes would have fought next if he beat Spinks in the first fight?
Somebody once mentioned that a possible match with Tony Tubbs for an IBF/WBA unification was in the works, but I'm not exactly sure if it's true.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:14 AM   #63
JohnThomas1
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 11,119
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

One boxing mag said only half jokingly that they expected him to take a very easy defense then offer Marvin Hagler big money for his 50-0 fight.
JohnThomas1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 08-23-2007, 08:43 AM   #64
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 238
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Let's all laugh at the simpleton.
After hearing him say this four times, i don't know whether to laugh or to cry anymore
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 10:30 AM   #65
Bill1234
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,005
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Originally Posted by Mendoza
History tells us Greg Page was never a great fighter. In fact I would argue that Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Witherpsoon, and Spinks were better fighters than Page. Holmes fought all of five of them in title shots. At best Page could have been Holmes 6th best opponent, though fans of Cooney, Bonecrucher Smith, and Weaver might argue for the 6th spot.

In my view Page ranks anywhere from 6-10th best of the opponents that Holmes fought in his title defenses up to the second Spinks fight. Champions hardly get any fuss for not fighting the #6, #7, or #8 man when they were champion. Was Page a hot commodity at one time? Sure. Did Page do enough to earn a shot for a lineal championship? I donít think so. As I mentioned before, Page was rather poor in his high stakes fights. Had Page won a few he lost, or beaten Bey, perhaps Holmes would have given him a shot. Itís not like Page was giving Holmes a Cooney like pay day. Page and Don King offered Holmes a bit more than his normal title defense. This is true. I am not familiar with the particulars of the contract. I know how Don King operates. Surely the contract to fight Page was not in Holmes best interest. So Holmes avoided Page for one fight, than Page proved to be hype. Itís a minor blip. Most popular champions donít get this type of backlash, but then again I get the feeling Holmes is not too popular here. Lewis gave up belts to Ruiz, and Byrd. Does this diminish Lewis career. Not in my opinion. However those who donít care for Lewis might see this as ducking.




Are you aware of how many deals and contract offers actually happen before a fight contract is made? Are you aware that corrupt organizations have not only ranked a dead man in the new monthly ratings, and amazingly had the same man move up in rank the next month?

Don King is the reason for the circus on this fight. Without him, this entire Holmes ducked Page business doesnít see the light of day. If you have the particulars of the terms and conditions of the contract for Holmes vs Page, by all means post it here. I donít need to look at it. With King, the location, re-match clause, who the judges are, the ring size, and options for who the winner would fight next ( Likely another Don King fighter ) were reasons Holmes declined the fight. It wasnít all about the money or Page being a terror in the ring. Far from it.

Although Holmes was not a formally educated man, he was smart enough to know what was good for his career. As I chronicled above, Page was hype. Page failed to win his big fights after his brief high alphabet ranking. Several of the fighters Holmes beat also defeated Page. Holmes fought at least five better fighters in title shots.

Boxing missing Holmes vs Page is hardly a super fighter that never was. Iím sure this board could name at least 50 heavyweight fights that never happened that were of more interest. Do you agree, Titan1?

PS: Does anyone know who Holmes would have fought next if he beat Spinks in the first fight?


Great post. And I think Larry would retire. He was an aging fighter and would be at that point 3 years past his prime. There would have to be a huge payday like the Tyson fight to bring him out. Of course, either way he would come back in the 90's to fight Foreman again.
Bill1234 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 10:35 AM   #66
Bill1234
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,005
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

So far, it seems to me, that everyone who likes Page *cough* JT *cough* ignores or forgets that Larry dropped Don King in 1983, and refused to deal with him after that. He dealed with King in the Tyson fight, and had to put up with the usuall crap. He had to go see Don after not getting payed when he should of, or not what he was going to get, and he had to curse King out to finally get the money. People blame Larry all too much for being a great buisness man, and being smart with the way he did things as champion. Its very clear and simple, if Larry was offered more to fight Page than he was to fight Frank and Frazier, then you would have seen him in the ring punishing his left glove with Pages face.
Bill1234 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 11:09 AM   #67
Duodenum
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1234
I think Larry would retire. He was an aging fighter and would be at that point 3 years past his prime.
I'm not convinced he would have, although that's certainly the conventional assumption. Anybody could go 49-0 against stiffs, win a championship in their 50th match, and then retire. I really have to wonder if the opportunity to break Joe Louis's record for all time highest number of title defenses would have been too tempting an objective to pass up.

If Larry had been granted the judges decision over Mike Spinks, that would have been Holmes's 21st successful title defense. At 49-0, he'd be six championship wins away from 26 title wins, and perhaps going for 54-0 to break Louis's record would have been too great a temptation to pass up. (I believe he should already have been there by the time of the first match with Mike Spinks, having only defended once in 1984. It doesn't matter to me personally though, since I consider Larry as if he did indeed go 55-0. Mercer is merely icing on the cake.)

Nonetheless, winning over 20 consecutive championship matches as an undefeated boxer was an unprecedented accomplishment, and he did defend it successfully in eight consecutive calendar years. (Louis held his title for over eleven years, but Guinness should have placed an asterisk next to that record because of his inactivity during WW II. While I don't blame Louis at all for his title being on ice, the fact of it remains the same. Ditto Ali's going into exile. I though Larry should have been listed alongside Louis for his eight consecutive years of championship wins.)

Last edited by Duodenum; 08-23-2007 at 09:04 PM.
Duodenum is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 04:58 PM   #68
AnthonyJ74
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,543
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Come on Bill, lets be sane about this. Page - Snipes on the undercard of Holmes - Witherspoon was billed as the eliminator for Holmes mandatory defense. In other words he new as soon as Page - Snipes was publicised if not earlier. Plain irrefutable fact. Even then he refused and the WBC let him fight Frank on the premise that he then fight Page. Finally when he made for Frazier they threatened to take the title off him, and then did.

And rightfully so! All Holmes had to do was fight Page and be done with it! And I'm not even saying that Page would have beaten Larry(although he stood a great chance), I'm just saying that Holmes owed it to the sport of boxing and to his fans to do the right thing: fight Page! I remember watching the Champions Forever video with Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Frazier, Norton. At the end of the video, each fighter gives a little talk on how they would like to be remember. During Larry's talk, he said that he would like to be remembered as a fighter who gave opportunities to fighters(shot at the title) when they deserved it. Well, he didn't mentiond Greg Page and why he allowed himself to be stripped! LOL
AnthonyJ74 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:07 PM   #69
Bummy Davis
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 9,450
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyJ74
And rightfully so! All Holmes had to do was fight Page and be done with it! And I'm not even saying that Page would have beaten Larry(although he stood a great chance), I'm just saying that Holmes owed it to the sport of boxing and to his fans to do the right thing: fight Page! I remember watching the Champions Forever video with Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Frazier, Norton. At the end of the video, each fighter gives a little talk on how they would like to be remember. During Larry's talk, he said that he would like to be remembered as a fighter who gave opportunities to fighters(shot at the title) when they deserved it. Well, he didn't mentiond Greg Page and why he allowed himself to be stripped! LOL
Bummy Davis is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:18 PM   #70
Titan1
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 2,908
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Originally Posted by Mendoza
History tells us Greg Page was never a great fighter. In fact I would argue that Norton, Shavers, Berbick, Witherpsoon, and Spinks were better fighters than Page. Holmes fought all of five of them in title shots. At best Page could have been Holmes 6th best opponent, though fans of Cooney, Bonecrucher Smith, and Weaver might argue for the 6th spot.

In my view Page ranks anywhere from 6-10th best of the opponents that Holmes fought in his title defenses up to the second Spinks fight. Champions hardly get any fuss for not fighting the #6, #7, or #8 man when they were champion. Was Page a hot commodity at one time? Sure. Did Page do enough to earn a shot for a lineal championship? I donít think so. As I mentioned before, Page was rather poor in his high stakes fights. Had Page won a few he lost, or beaten Bey, perhaps Holmes would have given him a shot. Itís not like Page was giving Holmes a Cooney like pay day. Page and Don King offered Holmes a bit more than his normal title defense. This is true. I am not familiar with the particulars of the contract. I know how Don King operates. Surely the contract to fight Page was not in Holmes best interest. So Holmes avoided Page for one fight, than Page proved to be hype. Itís a minor blip. Most popular champions donít get this type of backlash, but then again I get the feeling Holmes is not too popular here. Lewis gave up belts to Ruiz, and Byrd. Does this diminish Lewis career. Not in my opinion. However those who donít care for Lewis might see this as ducking.




Are you aware of how many deals and contract offers actually happen before a fight contract is made? Are you aware that corrupt organizations have not only ranked a dead man in the new monthly ratings, and amazingly had the same man move up in rank the next month?

Don King is the reason for the circus on this fight. Without him, this entire Holmes ducked Page business doesnít see the light of day. If you have the particulars of the terms and conditions of the contract for Holmes vs Page, by all means post it here. I donít need to look at it. With King, the location, re-match clause, who the judges are, the ring size, and options for who the winner would fight next ( Likely another Don King fighter ) were reasons Holmes declined the fight. It wasnít all about the money or Page being a terror in the ring. Far from it.

Although Holmes was not a formally educated man, he was smart enough to know what was good for his career. As I chronicled above, Page was hype. Page failed to win his big fights after his brief high alphabet ranking. Several of the fighters Holmes beat also defeated Page. Holmes fought at least five better fighters in title shots.

Boxing missing Holmes vs Page is hardly a super fighter that never was. Iím sure this board could name at least 50 heavyweight fights that never happened that were of more interest. Do you agree, Titan1?

PS: Does anyone know who Holmes would have fought next if he beat Spinks in the first fight?


You make some valid points, Mendoza, but Larry could've fought Greg if he wanted to. Instead, Marvis Frazier and Scott Frank. Scott Frank. Freakin Scott Frank. That is inexcusable. Holmes should have given Greg the chance at the belt. And in all probability, Greg had a heck of a chance of winning, provided if everything was on. Say what you want about Gregory Edward Page, but the man was definitely talented, and Larry knew this.Hence the avoidance.
Titan1 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:45 PM   #71
Bill1234
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,005
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan1
You make some valid points, Mendoza, but Larry could've fought Greg if he wanted to. Instead, Marvis Frazier and Scott Frank. Scott Frank. Freakin Scott Frank. That is inexcusable. Holmes should have given Greg the chance at the belt. And in all probability, Greg had a heck of a chance of winning, provided if everything was on. Say what you want about Gregory Edward Page, but the man was definitely talented, and Larry knew this.Hence the avoidance.

Larry fought Frank because it was part of the contract with fighting Frazier. It was sort of a combo. Larry signed a contract that said he would fight Frank and Frazier for 5 point something mill. I think it was like 5.5 or something. Everyone is talented that is in the top 10. And yes Page did have more talent then most of the heavyweights out their at the time, but don't forget, Larry still had miles more talent, and he was an ATG. Page vs Holmes would have been the battle of the jabs and techincal aspects, both sections where Holmes was very near the top for all time technical fighters. Larry possesed the better jab, and he would win most jabbing battles. I think it would be close, but gun to my head, I would think Larry would beat Page by about 3 rounds. Another factor is how long the fight is. If its a 15 round fight, then IMO that increases Larry's chances of winning.
Bill1234 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:48 PM   #72
AnthonyJ74
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,543
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan1
You make some valid points, Mendoza, but Larry could've fought Greg if he wanted to. Instead, Marvis Frazier and Scott Frank. Scott Frank. Freakin Scott Frank. That is inexcusable. Holmes should have given Greg the chance at the belt. And in all probability, Greg had a heck of a chance of winning, provided if everything was on. Say what you want about Gregory Edward Page, but the man was definitely talented, and Larry knew this.Hence the avoidance.
Exactly! And if Larry felt that he deserved more money to fight Page, then the next question should have been, why? What was it about Page that you felt you deserved more money for fighting? The money was ok to fight Frank and Frazier, but Larry felt Page was worth more? LOL......
AnthonyJ74 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 08:57 PM   #73
Bill1234
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,005
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyJ74
Exactly! And if Larry felt that he deserved more money to fight Page, then the next question should have been, why? What was it about Page that you felt you deserved more money for fighting? The money was ok to fight Frank and Frazier, but Larry felt Page was worth more? LOL......

Well, for one thing, Larry was the champion and in damn near all of championship fights before Larry was champion, the champ always got more money. But they never wanted that with Larry. He fought the politics for that. Then he went and fought the oppenents. I would say 85% of Holmes fights that didn't happen were because of politics or King. As for the other 15%, its more the fighters. Notice "fighters" is plural. Its almost never just 1 fighters fault. Usually the other fighter has something to do with it, or could have done something different. Like Coetzee-Holmes, if Coetzee agreed to fight in Vegas the first time, then they were going to fight. The 2nd time the promoter (I think it was something Smith) got sent to jail for basically stealing money from the bank, thus where he got all of his money for the huge paydays for Holmes and Coetzee. So then their fight fell apart. Larry didn't fight Page mainly because of politics. If Larry was going to get the payday he wanted, or close to it, then you would have seen him whipping Page's ass.
Bill1234 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 09:51 PM   #74
AnthonyJ74
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,543
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1234
Well, for one thing, Larry was the champion and in damn near all of championship fights before Larry was champion, the champ always got more money. But they never wanted that with Larry. He fought the politics for that. Then he went and fought the oppenents. I would say 85% of Holmes fights that didn't happen were because of politics or King. As for the other 15%, its more the fighters. Notice "fighters" is plural. Its almost never just 1 fighters fault. Usually the other fighter has something to do with it, or could have done something different. Like Coetzee-Holmes, if Coetzee agreed to fight in Vegas the first time, then they were going to fight. The 2nd time the promoter (I think it was something Smith) got sent to jail for basically stealing money from the bank, thus where he got all of his money for the huge paydays for Holmes and Coetzee. So then their fight fell apart. Larry didn't fight Page mainly because of politics. If Larry was going to get the payday he wanted, or close to it, then you would have seen him whipping Page's ass.
But why was Larry so picky about his purse when it concerned Greg Page? IF Page was no better than most of the other fighters that Holmes fought at the time, why all of a sudden decide to take issue with the money for a Page fight?
AnthonyJ74 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2007, 10:28 PM   #75
Bill1234
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,005
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyJ74
But why was Larry so picky about his purse when it concerned Greg Page? IF Page was no better than most of the other fighters that Holmes fought at the time, why all of a sudden decide to take issue with the money for a Page fight?
He was always picky about his purses. All of the other times he was able to get what he wanted, but not with Page. He made more money fighting low risk fights like Frazier and Frank, then he would have with a fight with Page. Thats one of the reasons he fought Frazier instead of Page.
Bill1234 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013