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Old 08-23-2007, 10:37 PM   #76
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
He was always picky about his purses. All of the other times he was able to get what he wanted, but not with Page. He made more money fighting low risk fights like Frazier and Frank, then he would have with a fight with Page. Thats one of the reasons he fought Frazier instead of Page.
I don't even think that it was about risk at any level. In order to make the Page fight and retain the WBC title, Holmes would have had to play by King's rules and that just wasn't going to happen. He and Don parted ways, and as soon as it was announced that Holmes-Page was off, King began his whole propaganda on how Holmes wasn't the true champion.
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Old 08-23-2007, 10:39 PM   #77
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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I don't even think that it was about risk at any level. In order to make the Page fight and retain the WBC title, Holmes would have had to play by King's rules and that just wasn't going to happen. He and Don parted ways, and as soon as it was announced that Holmes-Page was off, King began his whole propaganda on how Holmes wasn't the true champion.
Exactly. Ive been saying that from the start.
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Old 08-24-2007, 12:09 AM   #78
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
He was always picky about his purses. All of the other times he was able to get what he wanted, but not with Page. He made more money fighting low risk fights like Frazier and Frank, then he would have with a fight with Page. Thats one of the reasons he fought Frazier instead of Page.
You highlighted my point! Larry obviously thought that Greg Page was a high-risk fight; therefore, he fought easier opponents instead of fighting his mandatory.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:32 AM   #79
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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Great post. And I think Larry would retire. He was an aging fighter and would be at that point 3 years past his prime. There would have to be a huge payday like the Tyson fight to bring him out. Of course, either way he would come back in the 90's to fight Foreman again.
Do you mean Larry would retire at 49-0? With all your immense Larry knowledge do you not know he was chasing the coveted 50-0?
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:33 AM   #80
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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And rightfully so! All Holmes had to do was fight Page and be done with it! And I'm not even saying that Page would have beaten Larry(although he stood a great chance), I'm just saying that Holmes owed it to the sport of boxing and to his fans to do the right thing: fight Page! I remember watching the Champions Forever video with Ali, Foreman, Holmes, Frazier, Norton. At the end of the video, each fighter gives a little talk on how they would like to be remember. During Larry's talk, he said that he would like to be remembered as a fighter who gave opportunities to fighters(shot at the title) when they deserved it. Well, he didn't mentiond Greg Page and why he allowed himself to be stripped! LOL
I bet!

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Old 08-24-2007, 04:44 AM   #81
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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You highlighted my point! Larry obviously thought that Greg Page was a high-risk fight; therefore, he fought easier opponents instead of fighting his mandatory.
You've kicked some serious ass in here, and are very much in charge of the facts unlike the other side. Good work.
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Old 08-24-2007, 06:43 AM   #82
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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You make some valid points, Mendoza, but Larry could've fought Greg if he wanted to. Instead, Marvis Frazier and Scott Frank. Scott Frank. Freakin Scott Frank. That is inexcusable. Holmes should have given Greg the chance at the belt. And in all probability, Greg had a heck of a chance of winning, provided if everything was on. Say what you want about Gregory Edward Page, but the man was definitely talented, and Larry knew this.Hence the avoidance.
I agree. Holmes as champion could have taken the fight. The thing to focus on here is the terms and conditions of the contract, and the sphere of influences that Don King had on the match. The timing was also not ideal for Holmes, who was a very busy fighter in 1983.

Remember in boxing, the promoter picks his own judges. Don King could have very well picked WBC Judge Herb Santos, who was the minority judge in the Witherpsoon fight or WBC Judge Herb Tabat who was the minority judge in the Norton fight, and somehow had a 14-1 clean win for Holmes in the Berbick fight a bit too on his score card. Both judges were “ in “ with Jose Sulliman and Don King. If you were Larry Holmes, and you suspected an unfavorable contract from Don King would you sign such a contract? NFW! That stands for No F’n Way.

I think part of the reason Holmes did not fight Page was he wasn’t steering the ship on the match. Holmes was very active in 1983. He fought four times ( Who was the last heavyweight champion to do that? ), with one of the matches being vs a tough Witherspoon. It would be a lot to ask of any champion to fight both Witherspoon, and Page in a 5 month period, then fight two other un-defeated fighters in Frank and M. Frazier, especially if Don King was holding a serrated contract over Holmes head. See my point?

Regarding Frank, he wasn’t that bad. Frank beat guys who got title shots from Ali and Frazier, and was battle tested and un-defeated coming into the match. So how come Ali or Frazier don’t get grilled for fighting easier opponents in Wepner and Stander, who Gasp…knocked them down and near stunned them, while Holmes who was making 4 title defenses in a year gets grilled for fighting Frank? I assure you, both Ali and Frazier could have fought much better competition if they chose to.

In closing I agree that Holmes should have fought Page. It was a missed fight for sure, but it was not a missed fight that registers high on the Richter scale of histories missed fights. Not even close. I do believe if Page defeated Bey in 1984, there is a good chance that Holmes fights Page next on his contract more in Holmes favor.
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Old 08-24-2007, 07:52 AM   #83
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Larry did amongst some very comfortable challengers take on a few who once Holmes retired won a version of the title. Berbick, Witherspoon etc. a few were unbeaten when they faced him as challengers and in fact never even boxed again (Leroy Jones..) He had humility and a massive heart getting up to knock men out after terrible knockdowns.. Shavers, Snipes..
Larry is and i always stand by this.. One of the best five heavyweights of all time.. On technical ability.. Pure technician..
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Old 08-24-2007, 01:01 PM   #84
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
He was always picky about his purses. All of the other times he was able to get what he wanted, but not with Page. He made more money fighting low risk fights like Frazier and Frank, then he would have with a fight with Page. Thats one of the reasons he fought Frazier instead of Page.
And the end justifies the means. It might be pointed out that Larry isn't shining shoes in front of Miami's Fountainbleu Hotel today, or living under a highway overpass, or out of his car, or in a jail like Don King's own Mike Dokes, or sitting in a wheelchair like Page himself, who Larry's able to help out today through his support of Cooney's F.I.S.T. initiative. (By the way, where are the Kings and Arums when it comes to the support of who made them rich?)

Speaking of Cooney, if the IBHOF wants to redeem itself for all their crappy selections, they might want to consider inducting Gerry as a non-participant for his charitable work on behalf of the retired boxers King and Arum dispose of after their usefulness to them has expired.

Last edited by Duodenum; 08-24-2007 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 08-24-2007, 01:13 PM   #85
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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And the end justifies the means. It might be pointed out that Larry isn't shining shoes in front of Miami's Fountainbleu Hotel today, or living under a highway overpass, or out of his car, or in a jail like Don King's own Mike Dokes, or sitting in a wheelchair like Page himself, who Larry's able to help out today through his support of Cooney's F.I.S.T. initiative. (By the way, where are the King's and Arum's when it comes to the support of who made them rich?)

Speaking of Cooney, if the IBHOF wants to redeem itself for all their crappy selections, they might want to consider inducting Gerry as a non-participant for his charitable work on behalf of the retired boxers King and Arum dispose of after their usefulness to them has expired.
Excellent points here.

King, Arum and probably numerous other promotors in the history of the sport have sucked the blood out of fighters like it was as normal as breathing oxygen, yet a guy like Holmes gives part of his earnings back to help his peers in the sport, and is remembered by many as being a jerk.

Something wrong with that picture if you ask me.
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Old 08-24-2007, 01:22 PM   #86
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
And the end justifies the means. It might be pointed out that Larry isn't shining shoes in front of Miami's Fountainbleu Hotel today, or living under a highway overpass, or out of his car, or in a jail like Don King's own Mike Dokes, or sitting in a wheelchair like Page himself, who Larry's able to help out today through his support of Cooney's F.I.S.T. initiative. (By the way, where are the King's and Arum's when it comes to the support of who made them rich?)

Speaking of Cooney, if the IBHOF wants to redeem itself for all their crappy selections, they might want to consider inducting Gerry as a non-participant for his charitable work on behalf of the retired boxers King and Arum dispose of after their usefulness to them has expired.
Him and Alex Ramos.
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Old 08-24-2007, 04:09 PM   #87
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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Him and Alex Ramos.
Yes, and Alex has also been previously mentioned on ESB as a potential IBHOF inductee in connection with his post career work.
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Old 08-24-2007, 05:03 PM   #88
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Excellent points here.

King, Arum and probably numerous other promotors in the history of the sport have sucked the blood out of fighters like it was as normal as breathing oxygen, yet a guy like Holmes gives part of his earnings back to help his peers in the sport, and is remembered by many as being a jerk.

Something wrong with that picture if you ask me.
My chiropractor is a big Larry Holmes fan, and he has prominently displayed a photograph of him shaking hands with the champ, just the two of them, on a sidewalk in Easton, not long after Larry established himself as the top heavyweight in action. There are countless such portraits of Holmes with regular fans on the street, one on one. (How many such fan pictures of Ali are floating about?)

The press portrays Larry as being a jerk, but the press is fundamentally monarchist, and there seems to be a disconnect between how they frame Holmes, and how the general public perceives him. Like Elvis, Ali is no "man of the people" anymore (if he ever was), but a cloistered member of society's elite. He has long since become apotheosized, whereas Larry remains more accessible and better understood as "one of us." He is substance, not image. He's understood as a clear headed and tough minded individual who doesn't suffer fools gladly. He is not somebody who's projected to be all things to all people.

We can hardly take care of others if we don't take care of ourselves first. Holmes has, and that merits respect, whereas the press emphasizes pity and sympathy for "victims." Larry's real, not an iconic symbol, and not somebody with whom liberties are to be taken, but someone whose boundaries are to be respected. He is less regarded as a phony than the professional salesman Foreman has become. He's stood up for himself, and that's worthy of admiration.

He is far more intelligent than he is articulate, and he appears to realize that there is a separation between how the media portrays him, and how boxing fans familiar with his story do. For a young man with an eighth grade education to undermine the exploitative efforts of a parasite like King is an achievement worthy of high praise. An awful lot of brainpower was in the ring when Larry and Mike Spinks collided. They may have both been blasted in the ring by Tyson, but at the end of the day, who's really better off?

(Ditto for Tunney and Dempsey. One completely avoided being wiped out by the Great Depression, and the other rebuilt his fortune after it, without needing to come out of retirement, trading on his good name as Elvis's estate did after he died.)

Holmes has his limits, and he has a temper, and we appreciate that because we share those traits. Let Ali have the Presidential Medal of Freedom. I'd rather enjoy a different variety of freedom, one which doesn't entail being displayed as a public exhibit. Larry has mastered the use of a very simple, magic word: "No."
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:09 PM   #89
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

Every HW champ has defended his title against his fair share of bums and Larry's no exception. Of all the HW champs I think it's fair to say that Ali probably fought the best quality opposition. Louis and Johnson as well as Dempsey and Marciano did'nt exactly fight stellar opposition either. Maybe Larry should have fought Page and given Weaver or Witherspoon a rematch to better his legacy as a defending champion. Ali fought Frazier and Norton 3 times even after both were bounced all over the ring by Foreman after fighting Ali previously and I think Larry should have done the same to Mike or Tim but Larry would'nt have any of it. By the time he fought Witherspoon it was clear that Larry was beginning to fade a bit. Still a very good fighter with plenty of determination but looking somewhat far removed from the razor sharp technician who gave Shavers a boxing lesson in thier first encounter. I think the Witherspoon fight convinced Larry that it was time to start making the most money with the least amount of risk in the face of rapidly deteriorating skills. Can't fault him for that but it certainly did'nt help his quality of opposition rating. Maybe if he rematched Tim right away and beat him more convincigly then hung 'em up it would have helped his legacy but it's all speculation anyway. At his best Holmes ranks way up there and would have been too much for all but a few of the All time greats.
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Old 08-24-2007, 09:35 PM   #90
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Default Re: Holmes's Title Opposition, as shit as they say???

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
My chiropractor is a big Larry Holmes fan, and he has prominently displayed a photograph of him shaking hands with the champ, just the two of them, on a sidewalk in Easton, not long after Larry established himself as the top heavyweight in action. There are countless such portraits of Holmes with regular fans on the street, one on one. (How many such fan pictures of Ali are floating about?)

The press portrays Larry as being a jerk, but the press is fundamentally monarchist, and there seems to be a disconnect between how they frame Holmes, and how the general public perceives him. Like Elvis, Ali is no "man of the people" anymore (if he ever was), but a cloistered member of society's elite. He has long since become apotheosized, whereas Larry remains more accessible and better understood as "one of us." He is substance, not image. He's understood as a clear headed and tough minded individual who doesn't suffer fools gladly. He is not somebody who's projected to be all things to all people.

We can hardly take care of others if we don't take care of ourselves first. Holmes has, and that merits respect, whereas the press emphasizes pity and sympathy for "victims." Larry's real, not an iconic symbol, and not somebody with whom liberties are to be taken, but someone whose boundaries are to be respected. He is less regarded as a phony than the professional salesman Foreman has become. He's stood up for himself, and that's worthy of admiration.

He is far more intelligent than he is articulate, and he appears to realize that there is a separation between how the media portrays him, and how boxing fans familiar with his story do. For a young man with an eighth grade education to undermine the exploitative efforts of a parasite like King is an achievement worthy of high praise. An awful lot of brainpower was in the ring when Larry and Mike Spinks collided. They may have both been blasted in the ring by Tyson, but at the end of the day, who's really better off?

(Ditto for Tunney and Dempsey. One completely avoided being wiped out by the Great Depression, and the other rebuilt his fortune after it, without needing to come out of retirement, trading on his good name as Elvis's estate did after he died.)

Holmes has his limits, and he has a temper, and we appreciate that because we share those traits. Let Ali have the Presidential Medal of Freedom. I'd rather enjoy a different variety of freedom, one which doesn't entail being displayed as a public exhibit. Larry has mastered the use of a very simple, magic word: "No."
I have officially decided who I'm voting for in the next election.

GO DUODENUM !!!!!!
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