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Old 08-20-2007, 10:52 PM   #16
ironchamp
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
I'm not. Its been proven that tall, mobile fighters with decent jabs trouble Tyson. Larry just happened to be tall, have long arms, have an iron jaw, and have the greatest jab of all time. He would, IMO, out box Tyson to win a ud 15. Or even stop Tyson late.
What about the right hand...Mike had a killer right hand.

The fact that Tyson's power was in both hands makes this, for me, a pretty simple choice.

I wouldnt bet on Larry because I feel that at some point especially if he's dealing with a confident and prepared Tyson that he'd at one point get caught. Its hard to make Larry the favorite when Tyson has the solution all along. Tyson by Holmes admission was accurate. I'm certain that at some point he'd land and turn the tides in the event that he was behind on cards.
Tyson KO8
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Old 08-20-2007, 11:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

You made some good points up until this comment:

Quote:
I'm certain that at some point he'd land and turn the tides in the event that he was behind on cards.
Tyson KO8
Tyson was not typically big at coming back once behind the eight ball. He also had the tendency to lose interest late in a fight. Although I think Tyson would have a good chance of taking Holmes, he'd have to be on his toes the whole night, and not put himself in a position where he'd have to come back from a deficit.
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Old 08-20-2007, 11:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

It's strange.
Tyson is "troubled" when he doesn't lay people the **** out, it seems.
The scores against those mythical "big men with good jabs" weren't even close, fools!
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Old 08-20-2007, 11:20 PM   #19
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

Nobody is knockout proof. Holmes was extremely tough to knock out. He had great recuperative powers and heart plus a terrific chin.
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Old 08-21-2007, 06:52 AM   #20
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

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Originally Posted by Bill1234
I'm not. Its been proven that tall, mobile fighters with decent jabs trouble Tyson.
Like Carl Williams?
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Old 08-21-2007, 07:35 AM   #21
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

At his peak, Holmes was virtually as impervious as any heavyweight champion in history. A rusty, badly mis-timed and out of shape version of Holmes showed just enough against peak Tyson to prove that Mike would not have been able to compete with the premium vintage Easton Assassin. With Mike's speed, he might have been able to pull off a flash knockdown, but if so, that would be his only moment of the match. Peak versus peak, Holmes/Tyson is a man against a boy, even moreso because of Tyson's overhyped reputation.

If Tyson is facing the version of Larry who shutout Shavers over 12, Berbick and Cobb over 15, and carried Cooney 11 rounds beyond a second round knockdown (to try selling Gerry to the public as a viable challenger for an easy and lucrative rematch), instead of the mothballed and eyesight compromised variety, there would quickly be little doubt of the outcome. Having the "puncher's chance" believed going for him would keep Tyson's spectators in their seats until the end. But peak Tyson would have had far less of a chance at taking out peak Holmes than he did the vastly inferior Mitch Green, Quick Tillis, Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker. Tall, tough, mobile and physically strong opposition who could take a punch gave him all kinds of problems. At his very best, Larry was better than Smith, Tucker, Green and Tillis put together.

With Larry's jab not misfiring but on-target, he'd easily outmanuever and hold Mike at bay from outside, and utterly smother him like a wet blanket over a conflagration in close. Going into the championship rounds, Larry would already have an insurmontable lead (especially with Futch in his corner). I don't see Mike getting beyond 13 rounds with Holmes (especially since Tyson barely made it to the end of 12 with Smith).

Peak Tyson needed over 45 seconds to finally put Holmes away after the second knockdown, far more than enough time for a battle ready and fully conditioned youthful Holmes to recover fully. (He was lucky to finish the job with five seconds to spare in the fourth, although I'm sure Mike would have gotten him in a following round.) Larry simply wasn't prepared to compete on that date, yet he still got through nearly four complete rounds against one of the fastest starting heavyweights in history, while only collecting a paycheck.
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Old 08-21-2007, 09:51 AM   #22
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

which fight do i need to watch of holmes that shows him in yalls opinion peak form.ive looked at a few of them and was impressed by his jab immediatly followed by his right hand.he didnt seem to be much of ko artist,though he did have the steam to go 12 to 15 rds.so what ive seen so far is that he has great stamina and eventually wears his opponents down.prime example of this would be the shavers fight in 79,shavers just was so tired the ref stooped the fight in the 11th and shavers had knocked the chocolate out of holmes midwaY through the fight with a RIGHT HAND which larry somehow recovered after the knockdown!

Last edited by nick wells jr; 08-21-2007 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:04 AM   #23
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
At his peak, Holmes was virtually as impervious as any heavyweight champion in history. A rusty, badly mis-timed and out of shape version of Holmes showed just enough against peak Tyson to prove that Mike would not have been able to compete with the premium vintage Easton Assassin. With Mike's speed, he might have been able to pull off a flash knockdown, but if so, that would be his only moment of the match. Peak versus peak, Holmes/Tyson is a man against a boy, even moreso because of Tyson's overhyped reputation.

If Tyson is facing the version of Larry who shutout Shavers over 12, Berbick and Cobb over 15, and carried Cooney 11 rounds beyond a second round knockdown (to try selling Gerry to the public as a viable challenger for an easy and lucrative rematch), instead of the mothballed and eyesight compromised variety, there would quickly be little doubt of the outcome. Having the "puncher's chance" believed going for him would keep Tyson's spectators in their seats until the end. But peak Tyson would have had far less of a chance at taking out peak Holmes than he did the vastly inferior Mitch Green, Quick Tillis, Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker. Tall, tough, mobile and physically strong opposition who could take a punch gave him all kinds of problems. At his very best, Larry was better than Smith, Tucker, Green and Tillis put together.

With Larry's jab not misfiring but on-target, he'd easily outmanuever and hold Mike at bay from outside, and utterly smother him like a wet blanket over a conflagration in close. Going into the championship rounds, Larry would already have an insurmontable lead (especially with Futch in his corner). I don't see Mike getting beyond 13 rounds with Holmes (especially since Tyson barely made it to the end of 12 with Smith).

Peak Tyson needed over 45 seconds to finally put Holmes away after the second knockdown, far more than enough time for a battle ready and fully conditioned youthful Holmes to recover fully. (He was lucky to finish the job with five seconds to spare in the fourth, although I'm sure Mike would have gotten him in a following round.) Larry simply wasn't prepared to compete on that date, yet he still got through nearly four complete rounds against one of the fastest starting heavyweights in history, while only collecting a paycheck.
Very good post,

I tend to go back and forth as to who would win between a peak Tyson and peak Holmes. In fact, I've been up in the air about it for nearly 20 years ( LOL ). Holmes was indeed in a much higher category than even the best of Tyson's opponents in the 80's. Even Tyrell Biggs who wasn't particularly durable or talented managed to go 7 rounds and score some points against a prime Tyson. Tyson never fought in a 15 round bout, and only went 12 on a few occasions. If Larry could build up a lead early in the fight, then I don't see him as having much trouble in the mid to late rounds. Most of the air usually went out of Tyson's balloon beyond the 6th. One thing is for certain though, he would be very dangerous to Larry within the first 5 rounds, and given Holmes' soft spot for the right hand, we might have seen at least one or two knockdowns. Another thing that can be said for Tyson is that his best list of opponents probably tops that of Holmes best victories. Nevertheless, this would be a very tough match for both men....
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:21 AM   #24
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

A referee today would count him out versus shavers and certainly versus Snipes. He was in worse condition than lewis was versus mccall thats for sure.
I doubt the Tyson fight would be allowed to go on as long either by todays standards.
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:24 AM   #25
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

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Originally Posted by barneyrub
A referee today would count him out versus shavers and certainly versus Snipes. He was in worse condition than lewis was versus mccall thats for sure.
I doubt the Tyson fight would be allowed to go on as long either by todays standards.
Well,

neither men fought by the standards of today, so weather they met in 1978 or 1988, those would be the peramiters that they'd fight by.
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Old 08-21-2007, 12:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick wells jr
which fight do i need to watch of holmes that shows him in yalls opinion peak form.ive looked at a few of them and was impressed by his jab immediatly followed by his right hand.he didnt seem to be much of ko artist,though he did have the steam to go 12 to 15 rds.so what ive seen so far is that he has great stamina and eventually wears his opponents down.
The thing with Holmes is there is no Muhammad Ali-Cleveland Williams, Joe Louis-Max Schmeling, showcase fight in his title reign, displaying him in an aura of total dominance. Flattening Leon Spinks or Ossie Ocasio doesn’t qualify.

Holmes became champ at age 28, already slightly past the time when a heavyweight typically reaches his physical prime, so he could appear at his physical best for only a few more years after that. Never a training freak, he also got up for opponents just enough to win, and fought quite a few mediocre boxers, so I think Norton, Shavers I and II and Cooney show the best Holmes.

Holmes kept improving technically but, naturally, continued aging so, after Cooney, the best Larry was gone. He was always a technician, looking to win rounds; if the kayo came, it came.

Larry looked in peak form for the Ali bout; too bad the old master could no longer show up to fight.

Notwithstanding that infamous tear in the Holmes left tricep, the Norton fight showcases what a youthfully all-there Larry could do in a war; his turning back of Shavers is Holmes still a little more youth that savvy, and the outclassing of Cooney is Larry a little more savvy than youth.
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Old 08-21-2007, 01:04 PM   #27
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
At his peak, Holmes was virtually as impervious as any heavyweight champion in history. A rusty, badly mis-timed and out of shape version of Holmes showed just enough against peak Tyson to prove that Mike would not have been able to compete with the premium vintage Easton Assassin. With Mike's speed, he might have been able to pull off a flash knockdown, but if so, that would be his only moment of the match. Peak versus peak, Holmes/Tyson is a man against a boy, even moreso because of Tyson's overhyped reputation.

If Tyson is facing the version of Larry who shutout Shavers over 12, Berbick and Cobb over 15, and carried Cooney 11 rounds beyond a second round knockdown (to try selling Gerry to the public as a viable challenger for an easy and lucrative rematch), instead of the mothballed and eyesight compromised variety, there would quickly be little doubt of the outcome. Having the "puncher's chance" believed going for him would keep Tyson's spectators in their seats until the end. But peak Tyson would have had far less of a chance at taking out peak Holmes than he did the vastly inferior Mitch Green, Quick Tillis, Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker. Tall, tough, mobile and physically strong opposition who could take a punch gave him all kinds of problems. At his very best, Larry was better than Smith, Tucker, Green and Tillis put together.

With Larry's jab not misfiring but on-target, he'd easily outmanuever and hold Mike at bay from outside, and utterly smother him like a wet blanket over a conflagration in close. Going into the championship rounds, Larry would already have an insurmontable lead (especially with Futch in his corner). I don't see Mike getting beyond 13 rounds with Holmes (especially since Tyson barely made it to the end of 12 with Smith).

Peak Tyson needed over 45 seconds to finally put Holmes away after the second knockdown, far more than enough time for a battle ready and fully conditioned youthful Holmes to recover fully. (He was lucky to finish the job with five seconds to spare in the fourth, although I'm sure Mike would have gotten him in a following round.) Larry simply wasn't prepared to compete on that date, yet he still got through nearly four complete rounds against one of the fastest starting heavyweights in history, while only collecting a paycheck.
No way, Jose.

I suggest you analyze Tyson's tour de force as of his dismantling of Berbick.

Old Holmes survived as "long" as he did against Mike only because he avoided engaging Tyson for three rounds. When he decided to go to battle, he was duly clobbered and knocked out.

Young Holmes was nothing if not offense-minded. Tyson excelled at coming in, around and under jabs, slamming his foe from unexpected angles with tremendous power. Holmes would get hit early and go into his take-no-prisoners mode and be stopped as befell him as an old man.

Holmes was a great technician and could hold off crude sluggers like Shavers and Weaver, but at the same time was quite hittable and vulnerable after the first big shot got in. Tyson, a great finisher, would complete the job.

What's all this about Tyson laboring mightily to kayo Holmes? In less than half a round, Mike dropped the very resilient Holmes three times, the third for a 45-second-count knockout. If Larry hadn't moved around like he did after falling the second time, it would have ended even earlier. If this fight hadn't happened, the theorists would ridicule the notion that Mike could beat Larry, but the evidence of their actual fight must not be ignored, again, considering how well Larry did later on in his career.

And what's this about Mike "struggling" with runners like Tillis and Green? Mike was so good that people used a different standard in his fights. He was not merely expected to win but to knock out every man he faced. If an opponent decided to run and/or hold for dear life, it was a disappointing affair if Mike did not nail the kayo.

Tyson was light years ahead of guys like an old Norton, a one-dimensional Shavers, and a "Hercules" Weaver, who, as bangers, gave Larry all he could handle.

Seeing Larry go into his drunken dance as soon as he is hit solidly in his prime, I see nothing to tell me Mike Tyson would not clobber him before any other factor could come into play.
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Old 08-21-2007, 03:13 PM   #28
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick wells jr
which fight do i need to watch of holmes that shows him in yalls opinion peak form.ive looked at a few of them and was impressed by his jab immediatly followed by his right hand.he didnt seem to be much of ko artist,though he did have the steam to go 12 to 15 rds.so what ive seen so far is that he has great stamina and eventually wears his opponents down.prime example of this would be the shavers fight in 79,shavers just was so tired the ref stooped the fight in the 11th and shavers had knocked the chocolate out of holmes midwaY through the fight with a RIGHT HAND which larry somehow recovered after the knockdown!
Larry himself has said that he felt his best for the Cooney fight, but for my money, his most impressive performances were Shavers I and Cobb.

At the time Larry defended against Tex, Cobb had lost very close split decision verdicts to Norton and Dokes. Mike Dokes was the consensus number two heavyweight in the world at that time. Holmes was supposedly becoming prone to running out of steam in the late rounds. Everybody knew that Larry would not be able to take Tex out. But how good would Holmes look throughout a 15 round war where his opponent was utterly impervious, and would never take a backwards step?

15 rounds later, Larry had proved his ridiculous superiority to the rest of the HW division at that stage. Where number two Dokes had to settle for a questionable split decision over Tex, Larry shut him out over all 15 rounds. Going into the championship stretch, Cobb attempted to step up the pace in the hope that Holmes would be wearing down. Instead, Larry accelerated his pace by that much more over Cobb, and could have been awarded some championship rounds by two points. Do yourself a favor though, and watch Holmes/Cobb with the volume off (so as to not have your perspective tainted by Cosell's obnoxious blather). Better yet, view Dokes/Cobb I before getting into Holmes/Cobb. Then you'll witness exactly what the degree of seperation was between number one and number two in the early 1980's. You can also check out his 15 round shutout over Berbick. Trevor simply wanted to stop Larry's HW title knockout streak at eight, so he kept low, and concentrated on backing Holmes up (much as Godoy did in his first match with Louis). Larry showed great legs and footwork against Tex.

Regarding Holmes's ability to recuperate rapidly from a heavy shot, he was walking on his feet eight seconds after the right hand from Shavers which put him down connected, and his knee came off the floor only four seconds after he sustained the knockdown punch from Snipes and again, he was walking unassisted only eight seconds after Snipes connected. (This is a very far cry from Lennox Lewis leaning on the referee.) Keep in mind that the actual time Larry spent on the deck was much less than this. I'm giving the interval between these punches connecting and when Larry was back on his feet and walking again under his own power.

As fast and well-conditioned as Snipes was, and with the full sized heavyweight reach that he had, Renaldo still lost the remaining 2:37 seconds of that seventh round, even though he raced across the ring to try finishing Larry off as soon as the standing eight count was completed. Tyson would have had a lot of fun trying to reach and finish off a peak Holmes with his measly 71 inch reach!
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Old 08-21-2007, 03:30 PM   #29
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

Thoughtful post with which I agree,the right hand Shavers decked Holmes with would have flooredanyone and kept most of them there ,Larry had remarkable powers of recuperation and huge balls,[especially after Cooney hit him low].
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Old 08-21-2007, 05:37 PM   #30
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Default Re: Prime Holmes - Impossible to knock out?

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Thoughtful post with which I agree,the right hand Shavers decked Holmes with would have flooredanyone and kept most of them there ,Larry had remarkable powers of recuperation and huge balls,[especially after Cooney hit him low].
What blows my mind about that (if memory serves correctly) is that Gerry failed to take Holmes off his feet with those massive foul shots. Duran destroyed Buchanan with such a destructive punch, yet Larry recovered and went on to dominate Cooney, then take him out. How tough is that?
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