Would Ingemar Johansson have have won the title

[Jack Dempsey]

Had he been facing someone other than Floyd Patterson that night in 1959???

[Manassa]

Depends who that person is. If it's Pete Radamachacherer, then yea, he would have won it. Sonny Liston? Not a chance.

[jhar26]

Originally Posted by Jack Dempsey

Had he been facing someone other than Floyd Patterson that night in 1959???

You mean Sonny Liston? Poor Ingemar.

[Lacyace]

Sonny Liston KO1

[Jack Dempsey]

Originally Posted by Manassa

Depends who that person is. If it's Pete Radamachacherer, then yea, he would have won it. Sonny Liston? Not a chance.

Ingo interests me, he is the oldest surviving HW champ, the last surviving white undisputed champ, and you hardly hear much about him these days, do people think that he only won the title because he faced Patterson that night and not someone else??

This is not a thread to disrespect Floyd by the way, who I think was a great champ, I just think that, like Manassa said, against a Liston there is no way he would have won the title. Did he get lucky in his opposition?

[ChrisPontius]

It would've been interesting to see him take on Liston. It would certainly be Liston's best opponent up untill Clay.

[janitor]

I think that he potentialy had the tools to beat any of the top heavyweights of the period between Marciano and Liston.

While Johansen was a limited fighter he had a short right hand on a par with Joe Louis's and was verry inteligent in the way that he deployed his primary weapon. He was verry sucesfull in concealing just how effective it was before he fought for the title. Machen and Patterson both walked unsuspectingly into his sunday best and went to sleep.

[amhlilhaus]

Originally Posted by Jack Dempsey

This is not a thread to disrespect Floyd by the way, who I think was a great champ, I just think that, like Manassa said, against a Liston there is no way he would have won the title. Did he get lucky in his opposition?

I disagree, patterson was not a great champ. ingo got lucky to face patterson, then look what happened in their rematches. the way the series went tells all you need to know about those two.

[Senya13]

Johansson looks a VERY POOR boxer vs Uber Bacilieri and Hein ten Hoff, and vs Machen he's not so good either, until the moment he catches careless Machen.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by amhlilhaus

I disagree, patterson was not a great champ. ingo got lucky to face patterson, then look what happened in their rematches. the way the series went tells all you need to know about those two.

The question you have to ask is whether there was anybody apart from Patterson who he could not have beaten at the time. If not then he was a natural champion of the era.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Senya13

Johansson looks a VERY POOR boxer vs Uber Bacilieri and Hein ten Hoff, and vs Machen he's not so good either, until the moment he catches careless Machen.

Johansen had a way of making careless opponents get caught with that short right hand. It might have been the only strong card he had but he knew how to play it verry well.

[Senya13]

It's not just the way he pretends to be, to trick someone or anything, it's the way he is. He is a VERY POOR BOXER, his skills were worse than average.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by Senya13

It's not just the way he pretends to be, to trick someone or anything, it's the way he is. He is a VERY POOR BOXER, his skills were worse than average.

I am not saying that he pretended to be a poor boxer to trick his oponents. I do think however that he concealed his best asets and thus employed them to devastating effect.

[red cobra]

I do admire the classic simplicity in which Johansson utilized a bit of trickery to lull both Machen and Patterson into not suspecting the big surprise right hand of his. In Machen's case, it all happened rather quickly, in the first round which turned out to be a nightmare for Machen, With Patterson, for the first two rounds, Ingo used an almost static strategy of just jabbing and pawing, and almost not even using the right at all, kind of just lulling Floyd to sleep and hypnotizing him with that flicking left, then suddenly springing the surprise in the third. Ingo was kind of like a "sit and wait" predator, like viper, or something, if I might use an analogy from the animal world. Just patiently jabbing away, and then with sudden lightning speed, throwing that straight right. Ingo was good at that one thing, and in a purist kind of way, he was very effective for a while. Whether he would have been as successful at winning the title against anyone but Floyd is an interesting questio. Maybe he was a one time only sort of phenomenom (obviously he was) but whoever he could lull into his classically simple trap he would have had a chance against. You could draw your own scenarios with several examples of champions of the past like Jack Sharkey, Jim Braddock, two of which come to mind as possible victims of Ingo. Dempsey and Tunney I rather doubt. Dempsey would have been too much animal for Ingo, and Tunney simply would have not let himself get caught, and would have clinically dissected Ingo along the way. He might have succeeded in rocking and even decking Joe Louis, but the payback would have beem quite devastating for the Swede. I doubt a prepared Charles or Walcott would have had any trouble with him either, and you know what Marciano would have done to him. As for the others.....

[janitor]

Originally Posted by red cobra

I do admire the classic simplicity in which Johansson utilized a bit of trickery to lull both Machen and Patterson into not suspecting the big surprise right hand of his. In Machen's case, it all happened rather quickly, in the first round which turned out to be a nightmare for Machen, With Patterson, for the first two rounds, Ingo used an almost static strategy of just jabbing and pawing, and almost not even using the right at all, kind of just lulling Floyd to sleep and hypnotizing him with that flicking left, then suddenly springing the surprise in the third. Ingo was kind of like a "sit and wait" predator, like viper, or something, if I might use an analogy from the animal world. Just patiently jabbing away, and then with sudden lightning speed, throwing that straight right. Ingo was good at that one thing, and in a purist kind of way, he was very effective for a while.

This is a verry good analysis of Johansens strengths and weakneses.

Although he was technicaly limited I am will ing to say that he might have had the most efective right hand in the history of the heavyweight division. He played this one good hand verry effectively.

Once his opponents knew his strengths and started to fear that bingo right hand he became less efective.