Jerry Quarry vs. Vitali Klitschko

[Sakura]

Jerry Quarry was in his prime 6'0, 198 lb and Vitali Klitchko is 6'8, 250 lb there is now match

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

This assessment was astute and enjoyable to read. My take on this pairing may be slightly different, but read on.

I've just scrutinized footage of both, and see another Loughran/Baer type boxing lesson in store for the ungainly rootfooted robotic one.

Jerry would easily outmanuever him en route to a lopsided unanimous decision. Size and strength would be no kind of asset against a veteran who blew out Shavers within a round, knocked Foreman on his keister in sparring, and showed Ron Lyle what great ring generalship looked like.

Quarry would be salivating in anticipation of beating tattoos into the flesh of that huge upright torso, moving side to side, in and out, slipping and countering off the ropes with ridiculous ease of quickness, spinning his prey around constantly in the clinches, getting under his gangly victim's long ineffectual swings and ponderous thrusts.

The Bellflower Belter would give Dr. Rustfist a boxing lesson along the lines of Tommy Loughran's schooling of Max Baer. He'd enjoy the easy pickings of an upright, mechanical, impotent target, landing three or four punches to every one the haplessly automatonic giant attempted.

Vitalis would learn, as Shavers and Frazier discovered, that Jerry was no slow starter. Later he would discover, as Spencer and Lyle did, that Quarry was also a strong finisher. He'd also learn that height and reach might prove most ineffectual against a foe with a lower center of gravity who can change his position in the ring quickly and continually.

Irish Jerry demonstrated what he could do to a big man with his ridiculously lopsided domination of Buster Mathis.

Ali was at the relaxed best of his second career for an emotionally drained and psyched out Quarry in their rematch. But for this one, Jerry wouldn't be facing The Greatest primed for a marquee performance. Quarry would lure him into the corners, then have Viagra spun around and pinned in the corners himself, before realizing what Jerry was doing.

With Gil Clancy as Jerry's second, Velveeta would be lucky to win four or five rounds. He'd think he was facing a nest of machine guns from both sides. Rustfist, meet Triggerfist.

Science and statistics be damned. The human element is all in Quarry's favor.

Jerry Quarry UD 15 Klitschko (either one).

Vitali is not comparable to Baer. First of all, Vitali is to Baer what Liston is to Marciano. Vitali is 6'7 1/2 250 lb, not 6'2 1/2 and 210 lb.

Second, Vitali rarely lost rounds. Baer did so very often, he managed to lose a decision to a past his prime Braddock for crying out loud. The two natural sub-200 pound fighters that Vitali fought lasted one round and two rounds.
Vitali has an ugly style just like Max, but he is very effective with it and no one really solved it. He also has an iron chin and can fight on the backfoot (see the Sanders fight) or on the front foot (most of his fights).

Ali had Quarry completely befuddled by a long jab and movement and Ali didn't have nearly the size that Vitali does. Ali wasn't as fast as he was at his peak anymore either. You're giving all excuses for Quarry emotionally drained and what not, but the fact is that he was at the peak of his powers whereas Ali had a full three year layoff and no warmup fight at all. Everything was in his favor yet he only lasted 3 rounds.

You're bringing up the Mathis fight to show him against a big guy, but Vitali is to Mathis what Ali is to Frazier in height, a huge difference. Mathis was mostly a fat guy who lost every time he stepped up. Vitali wasn't a glass chinned, staminaless fighter like Shavers either.


I take Vitali by late TKO.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by KTFO

Vitlay has a weight advantage of 50lbs and a hight advantage of 7". Plus he has some pretty good tactics. Anyone who sees Quarry winning this one must be a fucked up drug addict.

You mean like the idiots who gave Dempsey a chance against Willard, and Walker a chance against Uzcudun?

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

You mean like the idiots who gave Dempsey a chance against Willard, and Walker a chance against Uzcudun?

What he probably means is that Vitali actually has skill, lost very few rounds and was in great shape, whereas Willard was 37 years old, out of shape, had barely fought in three years, had a non existent defense and would've never beaten an old Johnson had it been a 12, 15 or 20-rounder.

You mean like the idiots who gave Dempsey a chance against Willard, and Walker a chance against Uzcudun?

You forgot to mention Primo Carnera.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Vitali is not comparable to Baer. First of all, Vitali is to Baer what Liston is to Marciano. Vitali is 6'7 1/2 250 lb, not 6'2 1/2 and 210 lb.

Second, Vitali rarely lost rounds. Baer did so very often, he managed to lose a decision to a past his prime Braddock for crying out loud. The two natural sub-200 pound fighters that Vitali fought lasted one round and two rounds.
Vitali has an ugly style just like Max, but he is very effective with it and no one really solved it. He also has an iron chin and can fight on the backfoot (see the Sanders fight) or on the front foot (most of his fights).

Ali had Quarry completely befuddled by a long jab and movement and Ali didn't have nearly the size that Vitali does. Ali wasn't as fast as he was at his peak anymore either. You're giving all excuses for Quarry emotionally drained and what not, but the fact is that he was at the peak of his powers whereas Ali had a full three year layoff and no warmup fight at all. Everything was in his favor yet he only lasted 3 rounds.

You're bringing up the Mathis fight to show him against a big guy, but Vitali is to Mathis what Ali is to Frazier in height, a huge difference. Mathis was mostly a fat guy who lost every time he stepped up. Vitali wasn't a glass chinned, staminaless fighter like Shavers either.


I take Vitali by late TKO.

No modern heavyweight has anything resembling the skills possessed by a veteran Quarry. Witness how fat old Larry Holmes schooled the peaking 1988 Olympic HW Gold Medalist. That's representative of how much the art of boxing has declined from Quarry's era to Klitschko's. A peak Larry Holmes would have shut out Mercer 150-135 over 15 rounds with the least possible trouble, and the modern sport has devolved so much that Chuck Wepner would look like SRR against today's heavyweights. Oh, and Carnera boxes Klitschko's ears off in sweeping the championship rounds. After 12 rounds, Quarry had decisioned Lyle handily. This was the same Lyle who was actually leading a prime experienced Ali in the scoring after ten rounds.

No, Vitali is not comparable to Baer. Maxie dominated King Levinski over the 20 round distance. Gee, I wonder what Klitschko would look like after trying to go 20 with Baer, cause he sure as heck isn't going to be able to land an opponent who took Galento's best with six ounce gloves. (Aren't today's wimps using ten and twelve ounce pillows?) Just check out Baer/Carnera on youtube for the visual of what Baer (either Buddy or Max) might look like against Klitschko (either Vitali or Wlad).


ps: It's about time Chris. I can't spend all my sparring time against good old JT. I've come to rely on your antagonism, as it's become part of my comfort zone on ESB Classic. (When you agree with anything I post, I panic.)

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

This assessment was astute and enjoyable to read. My take on this pairing may be slightly different, but read on.

I've just scrutinized footage of both, and see another Loughran/Baer type boxing lesson in store for the ungainly rootfooted robotic one.

Jerry would easily outmanuever him en route to a lopsided unanimous decision. Size and strength would be no kind of asset against a veteran who blew out Shavers within a round, knocked Foreman on his keister in sparring, and showed Ron Lyle what great ring generalship looked like.

Quarry would be salivating in anticipation of beating tattoos into the flesh of that huge upright torso, moving side to side, in and out, slipping and countering off the ropes with ridiculous ease of quickness, spinning his prey around constantly in the clinches, getting under his gangly victim's long ineffectual swings and ponderous thrusts.

The Bellflower Belter would give Dr. Rustfist a boxing lesson along the lines of Tommy Loughran's schooling of Max Baer. He'd enjoy the easy pickings of an upright, mechanical, impotent target, landing three or four punches to every one the haplessly automatonic giant attempted.

Vitalis would learn, as Shavers and Frazier discovered, that Jerry was no slow starter. Later he would discover, as Spencer and Lyle did, that Quarry was also a strong finisher. He'd also learn that height and reach might prove most ineffectual against a foe with a lower center of gravity who can change his position in the ring quickly and continually.

Irish Jerry demonstrated what he could do to a big man with his ridiculously lopsided domination of Buster Mathis.

Ali was at the relaxed best of his second career for an emotionally drained and psyched out Quarry in their rematch. But for this one, Jerry wouldn't be facing The Greatest primed for a marquee performance. Quarry would lure him into the corners, then have Viagra spun around and pinned in the corners himself, before realizing what Jerry was doing.

With Gil Clancy as Jerry's second, Velveeta would be lucky to win four or five rounds. He'd think he was facing a nest of machine guns from both sides. Rustfist, meet Triggerfist.

Science and statistics be damned. The human element is all in Quarry's favor.

Jerry Quarry UD 15 Klitschko (either one).

Vitali could beat Quarry by just using the jab and countering,though plodding and predictable Klitschko can box a bit and certainly hit ,Quarry was mobile with good power ,and fast hands ,but prone to cuts and fighting emotionally,getting off his game plan if he did this against the Russian he loses.Jimmy Ellis beat Quarry by countering him ,I thinkVitali could do the sameKlitschko by dec or late TKO,on cuts.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Vitali could beat Quarry by just using the jab and countering,though plodding and predictable Klitschko can box a bit and certainly hit ,Quarry was mobile with good power ,and fast hands ,but prone to cuts and fighting emotionally,getting off his game plan if he did this against the Russian he loses.Jimmy Ellis beat Quarry by countering him ,I thinkVitali could do the sameKlitschko by dec or late TKO,on cuts.

When it came to cuts, Jerry wasn't exactly Wepner or Antuofermo. Four of his nine defeats were due to cuts, and he had 66 professional bouts in all, so I'm not sure he was the bleeder he's been stereotyped as.

Most cuts are inflicted by a clash of heads, an unlikely scenario with the height disparity involved here. Quarry's 12 rounder with Lyle was a masterpiece of ring generalship, and Lyle was a better tactician than I believe Klitschko was. Quarry performed very poorly against Ellis, but Jimmy probably had the better sparring partner in training to help him prepare for Jerry. Again, Klitschko was probably not in Ellis's league as a strategist, but a good rudimentary stand-up stylist with substantial height and reach. Quarry would not be facing Ali, Ellis or Frazier, but a stiff, semi-mobile adversary.

I don't think Klitschko would be doing the countering in this one. Jerry was able to make Lyle move the way Quarry wanted, and I simply don't understand how Klitschko could possibly possess the level of ring savvy Lyle did, let alone Jerry. Nor would he be able to get inside Quarry's head the way Ali did.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

When it came to cuts, Jerry wasn't exactly Wepner or Antuofermo. Four of his nine defeats were due to cuts, and he had 66 professional bouts in all, so I'm not sure he was the bleeder he's been stereotyped as.

Most cuts are inflicted by a clash of heads, an unlikely scenario with the height disparity involved here. Quarry's 12 rounder with Lyle was a masterpiece of ring generalship, and Lyle was a better tactician than I believe Klitschko was. Quarry performed very poorly against Ellis, but Jimmy probably had the better sparring partner in training to help him prepare for Jerry. Again, Klitschko was probably not in Ellis's league as a strategist, but a good rudimentary stand-up stylist with substantial height and reach. Quarry would not be facing Ali, Ellis or Frazier, but a stiff, semi-mobile adversary.


I don't think Klitschko would be doing the countering in this one. Jerry was able to make Lyle move the way Quarry wanted, and I simply don't understand how Klitschko could possibly possess the level of ring savvy Lyle did, let alone Jerry. Nor would he be able to get inside Quarry's head the way Ali did.

I agree with most of what you're saying. Quarry was definately the more skilled and savvy of these two fighters, and had a better list of quality wins at that. Don't you feel, however that Vitali's enormous size and strength advantage would be a major factor here though? I mean, I wouldn't be so concerned if Jerry were taking on a 6'7" 240 pound tomato can, but Klitschko was hardly of that description.

What do you think?

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

No modern heavyweight has anything resembling the skills possessed by a veteran Quarry. Witness how fat old Larry Holmes schooled the peaking 1988 Olympic HW Gold Medalist. That's representative of how much the art of boxing has declined from Quarry's era to Klitschko's. A peak Larry Holmes would have shut out Mercer 150-135 over 15 rounds with the least possible trouble, and the modern sport has devolved so much that Chuck Wepner would look like SRR against today's heavyweights. Oh, and Carnera boxes Klitschko's ears off in sweeping the championship rounds. After 12 rounds, Quarry had decisioned Lyle handily. This was the same Lyle who was actually leading a prime experienced Ali in the scoring after ten rounds.

I disagree with that decline. One fight does not prove an entire group of fighters being weaker. YI may just as well single out Tyson or Holyfield vs Holmes and say how he was dominated. You bring up Wepner but i will remind you that Wepner was a top10 ranked contender in the 70's.

However, i don't think one particular era is stronger than another; there are always Wepners, Rodriguezes, Wilsons, and contenders and one, two or three greats.

Carnera lacks the speed and skill to box Klitschko's ears off. Klitschko is way more athletic. Carnera came in a time when 6'6 was a huge exception. Today, that height is still high, but much less rare and as a consequence there's more talent for such big fighters as we've seen in Bowe, Lewis and both Klitschko's, during the last ten years.

I also don't see as much in Lyle as you do. He lost all his big fights: a badly aging Ali, against Foreman (a close one, i'll admit), to Quarry and twice befuddled by Young. He did beat Bonavena (who incidentally, also lost all of his big fights) Jimmy Ellis who was so badly past his prime that he lost to Kirkman.

You speak of him being ahead after 10 against a prime experienced Ali. Ali prime experienced in 1975? He had to beat Frazier (who was also declined) a few months later on pure heart and determination instead of his great reflexes and speed. The reason Lyle was ahead was not because he was a good boxer but because Ali was addicted to the ropes after he beat Foreman, and was hoping for Lyle to just fall down after hitting him. Which didn't happen obviously. The fact that Lyle was out on his feet after a single punch from Ali speaks very bad for him. Ali has very little power compared to other heavyweights; in fact this is the only fight in his entire career that he turned around with a single punch (not counting the Liston rematch for obvious reasons).

No, Vitali is not comparable to Baer. Maxie dominated King Levinski over the 20 round distance. Gee, I wonder what Klitschko would look like after trying to go 20 with Baer, cause he sure as heck isn't going to be able to land an opponent who took Galento's best with six ounce gloves. (Aren't today's wimps using ten and twelve ounce pillows?) Just check out Baer/Carnera on youtube for the visual of what Baer (either Buddy or Max) might look like against Klitschko (either Vitali or Wlad).

Yes i saw Baer/Carnera, and he managed to lose a lot of the middle rounds and not finishing Carnera after several knockdowns. I also saw how very limited he was outside of his right hand.
By the way, are we talking about the same Levinsky who lost to almost anyone with a pulse as well as many journeymen? He had two good wins in 1931 but outside of that, his record is that of a journeyman.

ps: It's about time Chris. I can't spend all my sparring time against good old JT. I've come to rely on your antagonism, as it's become part of my comfort zone on ESB Classic. (When you agree with anything I post, I panic.)

I know, you wouldn't have it any other way.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

I agree with most of what you're saying. Quarry was definately the more skilled and savvy of these two fighters, and had a better list of quality wins at that. Don't you feel, however that Vitali's enormous size and strength advantage would be a major factor here though? I mean, I wouldn't be so concerned if Jerry were taking on a 6'7" 240 pound tomato can, but Klitschko was hardly of that description.

What do you think?

How would Klitschko cope with Jerry's enormous strength, low center of gravity, and quickness in close? Bruce Lee had a well known saying, "Strength is good, but if you can't use it quickly it's of no avail." Jerry would have a pretty easy time getting underneath Klitschko's arms, and moving side to side under his jabs and crosses.

As for the old saying, "Don't hook with a hooker," that's entirely in Quarry's favor. For two rounds, Jerry actually outhooked and outworked Frazier on the inside, especially to the body, and this wasn't against a slow starting version of Smoke, but one who was coming off a single round dismantling of Zyglewicz. Klitschko is a headhunter, and a long range headhunter at that. Unlike Frazier, he's no 15 round fighter.

Quarry boxed in an era of eight ounce gloves. How's Klitschko going to hurt him with ten ounce pillows when Shavers and Lyle couldn't faze him with the lighter equipment? We can see how big Klitschko is, but Quarry showed how strong he was at the very beginning of his rematch with Ali, when he effortlessly picked up Muhammad without the use of his gloved hands, only his arms, and deposited him in a corner.

I wasn't even convinced the Klitschko's could prevail over James "Buddha" Toney (who recently tested positive for Geritol and prune juice through carbon 14 dating).

Klitschko may be bigger and stronger than Jerry, but I agree with those who posit that the size advantage is all Quarry's.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

How would Klitschko cope with Jerry's enormous strength, low center of gravity, and quickness in close? Bruce Lee had a well known saying, "Strength is good, but if you can't use it quickly it's of no avail." Jerry would have a pretty easy time getting underneath Klitschko's arms, and moving side to side under his jabs and crosses.

As for the old saying, "Don't hook with a hooker," that's entirely in Quarry's favor. For two rounds, Jerry actually outhooked and outworked Frazier on the inside, especially to the body, and this wasn't against a slow starting version of Smoke, but one who was coming off a single round dismantling of Zyglewicz. Klitschko is a headhunter, and a long range headhunter at that. Unlike Frazier, he's no 15 round fighter.

Quarry boxed in an era of eight ounce gloves. How's Klitschko going to hurt him with ten ounce pillows when Shavers and Lyle couldn't faze him with the lighter equipment? We can see how big Klitschko is, but Quarry showed how strong he was at the very beginning of his rematch with Ali, when he effortlessly picked up Muhammad without the use of his gloved hands, only his arms, and deposited him in a corner.

I wasn't even convinced the Klitschko's could prevail over James "Buddha" Toney (who recently tested positive for Geritol and prune juice through carbon 14 dating).

Klitschko may be bigger and stronger than Jerry, but I agree with those who posit that the size advantage is all Quarry's.

The only possible way for Quarry to take this one is by a decision. Kltschko was unable to finish a fight on but two occasions in his career, one by stoppage on cuts, while the other came from a torn rotator cuff. His chin was never in question. Quarry would have to out maneuver Vitali for at least 12 rounds, or 10 if there was no title on the line. He had great boxing ability, but I doubt he'd go the whole fight without being subjected to getting hit with some ferocious shots. As for your comment about him surviving Shavers, keep in mind that Earnie rarely if ever had a chance to land flush on Jerry, as the fight was over with in the first round. Quarry would not be able to dispatch of Klit in such a fashion. I believe you also stated once that you no longer follow boxing and that most of your knowledge is on fighters pre 12 round championship days, which falls around 1986? That being the case, have you viewed much footage of Vitali Klitschko?

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

When it came to cuts, Jerry wasn't exactly Wepner or Antuofermo. Four of his nine defeats were due to cuts, and he had 66 professional bouts in all, so I'm not sure he was the bleeder he's been stereotyped as.

Most cuts are inflicted by a clash of heads, an unlikely scenario with the height disparity involved here. Quarry's 12 rounder with Lyle was a masterpiece of ring generalship, and Lyle was a better tactician than I believe Klitschko was. Quarry performed very poorly against Ellis, but Jimmy probably had the better sparring partner in training to help him prepare for Jerry. Again, Klitschko was probably not in Ellis's league as a strategist, but a good rudimentary stand-up stylist with substantial height and reach. Quarry would not be facing Ali, Ellis or Frazier, but a stiff, semi-mobile adversary.

I don't think Klitschko would be doing the countering in this one. Jerry was able to make Lyle move the way Quarry wanted, and I simply don't understand how Klitschko could possibly possess the level of ring savvy Lyle did, let alone Jerry. Nor would he be able to get inside Quarry's head the way Ali did.

I agree Quarry looked terrific against Lyle ,mobile and countering with 3 and 4 punch combos ,but Lyle wasnt that versatile,and I would question that he had any more ring savy than Vitali,Lyle was a late starter only a few months behind Ali in age but well deficient in experience,I think Klitschko keeps his composure well and is durable enough to get the job done,Ive just watched Quarry against Lyle ,Bodell, Shavers,Miteff,and Alexander,so the impressions are fresh in my mind,ps,Alexander dropped Quarry like a sack of spuds in the 1st round with a beautiful rising left hook,Jerry was dazed and hurt when he got up,still a bit wobbly in the 2nd ,he regrouped and dropped Alexander with right hand counters to force a stoppage,really I think this fight could go either way so I wont argue too strongly against your scenario,which as allways is astute and objective.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

I disagree with that decline. One fight does not prove an entire group of fighters being weaker. YI may just as well single out Tyson or Holyfield vs Holmes and say how he was dominated. You bring up Wepner but i will remind you that Wepner was a top10 ranked contender in the 70's.

Yes, but Mercer was the 1988 Olympic HW Gold Medalist, and that's the difference. Old Grandad was taking on he who was supposed to represent the very best of amateur boxing in 1988. What does that say for all the amateurs who did not win Olympic Gold, and became professional?

However, i don't think one particular era is stronger than another; there are always Wepners, Rodriguezes, Wilsons, and contenders and one, two or three greats.

Most of the great trainers are falling by the wayside, with very few exceptions left. We've never had a situation in boxing where so many geezers were prominent in competition. Assuming everybody is taking performance enhancing substances, the only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that these old farts were better schooled than the currently youthful crop.

Carnera lacks the speed and skill to box Klitschko's ears off. Klitschko is way more athletic. Carnera came in a time when 6'6 was a huge exception. Today, that height is still high, but much less rare and as a consequence there's more talent for such big fighters as we've seen in Bowe, Lewis and both Klitschko's, during the last ten years.

Primo fought several rounds against Baer with a fractured ankle. He was plenty tough. He was also athletically active until diabetes got the best of him. Yes, he may well have had the slowest hands of any heavyweight champion, but he used his reach and jab extremely well. There is no footage of him tripping over his own feet. He was no clutz. And Klitschko lacks the endurance to outlast Primo.

I also don't see as much in Lyle as you do. He lost all his big fights: a badly aging Ali, against Foreman (a close one, i'll admit), to Quarry and twice befuddled by Young. He did beat Bonavena (who incidentally, also lost all of his big fights) Jimmy Ellis who was so badly past his prime that he lost to Kirkman.

He retired Buster Mathis (before The Empty Refrigerator turned 30), and Greg Peralta, scored a fine SD win over Bugner, came off the deck late in his career to decision a surging Scott LeDoux, and recorded a classic knockout win over Shavers. As for Bonavena, many would argue that he should have been awarded the decison in the first Frazier contest. He posted wins over Chuvalo, Peralta, was the last one to defeat Leotis Martin, Mildenberger (only Ali had managed that in the previous five years), and Zora Folley. If Charlie Goldman had remained healthy and active in his career, who knows what he might have done.

You speak of him being ahead after 10 against a prime experienced Ali. Ali prime experienced in 1975? He had to beat Frazier (who was also declined) a few months later on pure heart and determination instead of his great reflexes and speed. The reason Lyle was ahead was not because he was a good boxer but because Ali was addicted to the ropes after he beat Foreman, and was hoping for Lyle to just fall down after hitting him. Which didn't happen obviously. The fact that Lyle was out on his feet after a single punch from Ali speaks very bad for him. Ali has very little power compared to other heavyweights; in fact this is the only fight in his entire career that he turned around with a single punch (not counting the Liston rematch for obvious reasons).

No, you've forgotten the left hook he wrecked Bonavena with. His left hook knockdown of Folley also turned around a match where he'd lost two of the previous three rounds. Ali hardly looked addicted to the ropes against Wepner and Bugner. Ron boxed him smartly, having learned well from Muhammad's ambush of Foreman. Lyle withstood 46 unanswered punches when the referee stepped in, and he still protested the stoppage

Yes i saw Baer/Carnera, and he managed to lose a lot of the middle rounds and not finishing Carnera after several knockdowns. I also saw how very limited he was outside of his right hand.

Check out his jabbing against Schmeling, and also his left hook in the first round against Louis.

By the way, are we talking about the same Levinsky who lost to almost anyone with a pulse as well as many journeymen? He had two good wins in 1931 but outside of that, his record is that of a journeyman.

Yes, and Baer later destroyed him quickly in an exhibition after Levinski made him angry by playing rough with him. (A mad Baer is a deadly Baer. Fortunately, it didn't happen often.) The point here is that Maxie was able to go 20 rounds, and dominate from start to finish (winning boxing's last 20 round decision).

I know, you wouldn't have it any other way.

Thanks for indulging me.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Yes, but Mercer was the 1988 Olympic HW Gold Medalist, and that's the difference. Old Grandad was taking on he who was supposed to represent the very best of amateur boxing in 1988. What does that say for all the amateurs who did not win Olympic Gold, and became professional?Most of the great trainers are falling by the wayside, with very few exceptions left. We've never had a situation in boxing where so many geezers were prominent in competition. Assuming everybody is taking performance enhancing substances, the only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that these old farts were better schooled than the currently youthful crop.Primo fought several rounds against Baer with a fractured ankle. He was plenty tough. He was also athletically active until diabetes got the best of him. Yes, he may well have had the slowest hands of any heavyweight champion, but he used his reach and jab extremely well. There is no footage of him tripping over his own feet. He was no clutz. And Klitschko lacks the endurance to outlast Primo.He retired Buster Mathis (before The Empty Refrigerator turned 30), and Greg Peralta, scored a fine SD win over Bugner, came off the deck late in his career to decision a surging Scott LeDoux, and recorded a classic knockout win over Shavers. As for Bonavena, many would argue that he should have been awarded the decison in the first Frazier contest. He posted wins over Chuvalo, Peralta, was the last one to defeat Leotis Martin, Mildenberger (only Ali had managed that in the previous five years), and Zora Folley. If Charlie Goldman had remained healthy and active in his career, who knows what he might have done.No, you've forgotten the left hook he wrecked Bonavena with. His left hook knockdown of Folley also turned around a match where he'd lost two of the previous three rounds. Ali hardly looked addicted to the ropes against Wepner and Bugner. Ron boxed him smartly, having learned well from Muhammad's ambush of Foreman. Lyle withstood 46 unanswered punches when the referee stepped in, and he still protested the stoppageCheck out his jabbing against Schmeling, and also his left hook in the first round against Louis.Yes, and Baer later destroyed him quickly in an exhibition after Levinski made him angry by playing rough with him. (A mad Baer is a deadly Baer. Fortunately, it didn't happen often.) The point here is that Maxie was able to go 20 rounds, and dominate from start to finish (winning boxing's last 20 round decision).Thanks for indulging me.

The Kingfish ate Baers porridge,and had to pay!