Jerry Quarry vs. Vitali Klitschko

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

The only possible way for Quarry to take this one is by a decision. Kltschko was unable to finish a fight on but two occasions in his career, one by stoppage on cuts, while the other came from a torn rotator cuff. His chin was never in question. Quarry would have to out maneuver Vitali for at least 12 rounds, or 10 if there was no title on the line. He had great boxing ability, but I doubt he'd go the whole fight without being subjected to getting hit with some ferocious shots. As for your comment about him surviving Shavers, keep in mind that Earnie rarely if ever had a chance to land flush on Jerry, as the fight was over with in the first round. Quarry would not be able to dispatch of Klit in such a fashion. I believe you also stated once that you no longer follow boxing and that most of your knowledge is on fighters pre 12 round championship days, which falls around 1986? That being the case, have you viewed much footage of Vitali Klitschko?

I've stated several times when I stopped following boxing, and why. (Having stated that, I'm also an amateur historian on some subjects who frequently fools people into thinking I'm much older than I am through my expressed knowledge of various subjects. Being able to apply a little practical insight to what little I know may have something to do with that.)

Admittedly, what I've watched of more recent boxing since hitching a ride on ESB Classic has been off of youtube, myspace, metacafe, and other on-line services. What I've seen of Klitschko is a classically European style of boxing. Upright, decent jab, cross, fair hook, rather stiff in his motions, good fundamentals, little fluidity, spontaneity, or generalship. It's the same tired old story, bigger is always better. The problem with being that big is that defense and quickness get compromised.

No, Quarry didn't give Shavers much of a chance to land on him, but Earnie has said he connected solidly on Jerry, while Quarry said Shavers never hit him immediately after the fight. Ron Lyle had lots of chances to connect on Jerry though, and only Ron got wobbled.

I do expect that Quarry would go in anticipating a time limit event, and would prepare accordingly. It's a fact that some boxers have had impervious chins, and some of them have been kickboxers who couldn't be dazed by a hard foot to the head. (Tex Cobb heads up that list). Even the hardest punches from Shavers aren't likely to measure up to the force of a typical skilled kick.

However, Jerry would certainly apply a dedicated body attack inside. He had early success doing that against the supreme bodypuncher of all time in Frazier, and Klitschko has a tremendous amount of body for Jerry to work over. That would begin to wear on the bigger man after several rounds. Quarry would be inside his arms an awful lot, and outwork him in close.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by mcvey

The Kingfish ate Baers porridge,and had to pay!

Indeed he did. He was deathly afraid of Louis, but didn't have enough sense to be afraid of Maxie until after his lights went out.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Indeed he did. He was deathly afraid of Louis, but didn't have enough sense to be afraid of Maxie until after his lights went out.

Maxie had the sense to be afraid of Louis ,and no one ever let him forget it!

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

I've stated several times when I stopped following boxing, and why. (Having stated that, I'm also an amateur historian on some subjects who frequently fools people into thinking I'm much older than I am through my expressed knowledge of various subjects. Being able to apply a little practical insight to what little I know may have something to do with that.)

Admittedly, what I've watched of more recent boxing since hitching a ride on ESB Classic has been off of youtube, myspace, metacafe, and other on-line services. What I've seen of Klitschko is a classically European style of boxing. Upright, decent jab, cross, fair hook, rather stiff in his motions, good fundamentals, little fluidity, spontaneity, or generalship. It's the same tired old story, bigger is always better. The problem with being that big is that defense and quickness get compromised.

No, Quarry didn't give Shavers much of a chance to land on him, but Earnie has said he connected solidly on Jerry, while Quarry said Shavers never hit him immediately after the fight. Ron Lyle had lots of chances to connect on Jerry though, and only Ron got wobbled.

I do expect that Quarry would go in anticipating a time limit event, and would prepare accordingly. It's a fact that some boxers have had impervious chins, and some of them have been kickboxers who couldn't be dazed by a hard foot to the head. (Tex Cobb heads up that list). Even the hardest punches from Shavers aren't likely to measure up to the force of a typical skilled kick.

However, Jerry would certainly apply a dedicated body attack inside. He had early success doing that against the supreme bodypuncher of all time in Frazier, and Klitschko has a tremendous amount of body for Jerry to work over. That would begin to wear on the bigger man after several rounds. Quarry would be inside his arms an awful lot, and outwork him in close.

Vitali has some stiff movements curtsey of some old kick boxing and boxing injures that have required surgery; however this doesn’t mean he can’t swiftly move around the ring.
Vitali can cover a lot of ground quickly.

Vitlai’s defense is hardly text book. Usually non-text book defenses aren’t very good, but in Vitali’s case it is. Vitlai defense is built around a good understanding of distance, good punch anticipation, towerining height and relitvely quick reflexes. The result is Vitali is hardly ever hit with more than one punch at a time. In fact, Vitlai makes fighter miss clean more often than James Toney did at heavyweight. It’s true.

I don’t think Quarry matches up well in this one at all.

[janitor]

Vitally Klitschko never genuinely proved himself at world level.

He is esentialy a latter day Gerry Cooney with a good knockout ratio against grade C opposition but no serious wins.

Fifty years from now we will still be talking about Wladamir Klitschko and Vitally will be the forgotten Klitschko whose main claim to fame is being Wladamir's brother.

And we will still be talking about Jerry Quarry.

[Vantage_West]

Originally Posted by Flabby Gut

Very true Vantage thanks. An advantage in sheer size could well mean a disadvantage in skills. This is hard to predict. Quarry knocked out a tall English guy with one punch in 1971. Maybe he would nail Vitali with a punch he never sees coming. Vitali just seems really strong and sturdy despite his gangly appearance. I gues it is hard for a guy 6-8, 250 to look graceful in the ring. Vitali sure was effective though. Even though I really like Quarry (he was my father's favorite fighter) I have a hard time envisioning him defeating Vitali.

well even george foreman was staying away from him becuase his reputation of knocking big guys out...he was a typical david to goliath

Vitally Klitschko never genuinely proved himself at world level.

After that sentence I stopped reading. Genuine bullshit.

[The Kurgan]

Originally Posted by KTFO

After that sentence I stopped reading. Genuine bullshit.

If you look at his record against boxers who were at the time in a reasonable top 5, they are both stoppage losses. One defeat was against an overweight champion at the end of his career, the other was against a feather-fisted boxer whom he dwarfed.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by The Kurgan

If you look at his record against boxers who were at the time in a reasonable top 5, they are both stoppage losses. One defeat was against an overweight champion at the end of his career, the other was against a feather-fisted boxer whom he dwarfed.

Quarrys opposition was better,he fought anyone who would fight him,apart from Lewis,Vitaly hasnt fought anyone special imo.

[The Kurgan]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Quarrys opposition was better,he fought anyone who would fight him,apart from Lewis,Vitaly hasnt fought anyone special imo.

He's fought one "special" boxer: Lennox Lewis, who was (a) at the end of his career and (b) victorious.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Yes, but Mercer was the 1988 Olympic HW Gold Medalist, and that's the difference. Old Grandad was taking on he who was supposed to represent the very best of amateur boxing in 1988. What does that say for all the amateurs who did not win Olympic Gold, and became professional?

Correction: Mercer was the heavyweight olympic winner. i.e. sub 200lb. While Quarry is in this category, the better ones competed at Superheavyweight.
The superheavyweight olympic champion of 1988 was Lennox Lewis and the runner up was Riddick Bowe. Foreman made no secret about it that he refused to fight either of them, and just about anyone here will pick them to easily beat that Foreman. So i don't think your point is a valid one.
In addition to that, amature talent need not translate in a good professional fighter as we've seen several times. Harrison is a great amature but a shitty pro. Nick Wells knocked Holmes out twice as amaturebut couldn't make it as pro. Henry Tillman twice beat Tyson, eliminating him of the olympics, but in the pro's, Tyson knocked Tillman out with a single punch the 1st round. Again, Tyson was not an amature olympic champion yet he layed Holmes out cold, who you claim to be superior.

Most of the great trainers are falling by the wayside, with very few exceptions left. We've never had a situation in boxing where so many geezers were prominent in competition. Assuming everybody is taking performance enhancing substances, the only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that these old farts were better schooled than the currently youthful crop.

It is not just performance enhancers, though. All people have become larger. Not just taller but also wider. A guy at my gym is near Carnera's size and he's barely an amature, i strongly doubt he's on the juice. There's simply more talent in that category now as there are more people in it.

Primo fought several rounds against Baer with a fractured ankle. He was plenty tough. He was also athletically active until diabetes got the best of him. Yes, he may well have had the slowest hands of any heavyweight champion, but he used his reach and jab extremely well. There is no footage of him tripping over his own feet. He was no clutz. And Klitschko lacks the endurance to outlast Primo.

I never doubted Carnera's toughness, whos chin is not that much above Wladimir's if you ask me, by the way. Klitschko need not outlast him. He can outland him 3 to 1. His hand and footspeed is simply in another category. When he was coming up, people were already saying his handspeed is comparable to a young Tyson, which is a tremendous compliment considering he's 6'6 245lb. Wladimir would put him away rather easily with right hands, just like Baer did. Vitali will need more time but he will do the job too.

He retired Buster Mathis (before The Empty Refrigerator turned 30), and Greg Peralta, scored a fine SD win over Bugner, came off the deck late in his career to decision a surging Scott LeDoux, and recorded a classic knockout win over Shavers. As for Bonavena, many would argue that he should have been awarded the decison in the first Frazier contest. He posted wins over Chuvalo, Peralta, was the last one to defeat Leotis Martin, Mildenberger (only Ali had managed that in the previous five years), and Zora Folley. If Charlie Goldman had remained healthy and active in his career, who knows what he might have done.

Exactly as i put it: against the lesser guys he won, but when stepping in class he consistendly lost his fights.

No, you've forgotten the left hook he wrecked Bonavena with. His left hook knockdown of Folley also turned around a match where he'd lost two of the previous three rounds. Ali hardly looked addicted to the ropes against Wepner and Bugner. Ron boxed him smartly, having learned well from Muhammad's ambush of Foreman.

I said "turned fights around with a single punch". He didn't turn the Bonavena fight around as he was winning it already if memory serves me well. I will admit that the Zora Folley fight is one that i overlooked. I was actually suprised that Folley was winning rounds despite him being old and very slow. But to be honest, it looked like to be more a matter of when Ali would turn up the heat. Ali was not always concerned about winning rounds. By the way, what a terrible chin on Folley. I'm suprised he went 6 with a peak Liston.

Lyle withstood 46 unanswered punches when the referee stepped in, and he still protested the stoppage

Which pretty much shows my point. 46 punches did not hurt him, he was just overwhelmed. I guess that one punch showed that every heavyweight can be dangerous.

Check out his jabbing against Schmeling, and also his left hook in the first round against Louis.

I have, and i still think he's very limited. A 30's version of Foreman if you like, only a bit smaller.

Yes, and Baer later destroyed him quickly in an exhibition after Levinski made him angry by playing rough with him. (A mad Baer is a deadly Baer. Fortunately, it didn't happen often.) The point here is that Maxie was able to go 20 rounds, and dominate from start to finish (winning boxing's last 20 round decision).

The point is that Levinsky pretty much was a journeyman. Any champion can dominate a journeyman over 20 rounds.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by KTFO

After that sentence I stopped reading. Genuine bullshit.

Who did he ever beat?

Sanders and Johnson are respectable wins but certainly nothing to sugest that he is some superheavyweight force of nature who would be too much for abybody under a certain weight.

He is no Wladamir Klitschko at this point and he is sure as hell no Lennox Lewis.

If you look at his record against boxers who were at the time in a reasonable top 5, they are both stoppage losses. One defeat was against an overweight champion at the end of his career, the other was against a feather-fisted boxer whom he dwarfed

Vitlay did fight Louis. His chin was tested,his skills were tested,his heart was tested. He proved that he's no quitter, that he can fight best opposition, that he has some muddafuckin hard chin. What else do ya want? Vitlay is back from retirement, to shut your asslickin mouth once and for all.

[Luigi1985]

Originally Posted by KTFO

Vitlay did fight Louis. His chin was tested,his skills were tested,his heart was tested. He proved that he's no quitter, that he can fight best opposition, that he has some muddafuckin hard chin. What else do ya want? Vitlay is back from retirement, to shut your asslickin mouth once and for all.

He can´t lose, if he loses, everyone says that he´s old and totally shot, if he wins, he´s god...

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by janitor

Who did he ever beat?

Sanders and Johnson are respectable wins but certainly nothing to sugest that he is some superheavyweight force of nature who would be too much for abybody under a certain weight.

He is no Wladamir Klitschko at this point and he is sure as hell no Lennox Lewis.

Vitali’s career is not over yet. To date he has beaten a good, but not great collection of fighters in impressive fashion. Vitali was the last Ring Magazine champion which is the gold standard in the alphabet soup world of professional boxing. He owns the highest KO ratio in the history of the sport, has never been down on the cards after three rounds of action, and has never been knocked down as a professional. His two losses came under unusual circumstances because he was ahead in those fights. A torn shoulder injury or a bad cut can in theory derail just about anyone. The thing to focus on here is neither Byrd or Lewis accepted a re-match. I highly doubt Byrd would win the re-match. Lewis vs Vitali now is a blow out win for Vitali, but in 2004 it would have been a great night for boxing.

When a fighter’s career is over, historians often look for big name wins on a resume Presently Vitlai lack this, but Vitlai never choose to take advantage of past their prime names like Tyson, Holyfiled, or Moorer. Lennox Lewis was not accepted as a great fighter until he defeated Holyfield and Tyson. Smart boxing fans know that both Holyfield and Tyson were past their best when they meet a still prime version of Lewis.

If Vitlai defeats McCline next he fights the winner of Peter vs Maskev. The winner of Peter vs Maskaev will be the most accomplished heavyweight in the world besides Wlad. If Vitali wins back the WBC title, I think he will have won a big match. Not enough to completely snuff out the critics who are looking for that “ name “ win on a resume , but enough to satisfy the objective fans / historians. In truth, most great champions did not beat a hall of fame fighter in their prime years.

Who is Tyson’s best win? Who is Dempsey’s best win? Who is Liston’s best win? IMO, it’s not much better than the winner of Maskev or Peter.

My $.02