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Old 08-25-2007, 03:45 PM   #16
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

If I Remember Correctly It Was Even Going Into The Last 2 Rounds And Hagler Won Them,i Have Not Watched That Fight In Years, It Was Close But Hagler Won, But A Lot Closer Than I Expected
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Old 08-25-2007, 07:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Duran exposed the downward slide of the Marvelous One’s skills. Sugar Ray Leonard was also doing the ringside commentary for that fight and I can just imagine what he was seeing and thinking.
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Old 08-25-2007, 08:02 PM   #18
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Quote:
Originally Posted by laxpdx
Hagler looked way too passive. He should've KO'd Duran in the mid to late rounds, IMO.
yeah should of koed duran cause it was the later rounds
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Old 08-25-2007, 09:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
My view was that El Cholo was winning after 12 rounds, then Hagler swept the championship rounds to take the decision. However, Duran produced a magnificent display of boxing over the first 12 rounds, and demonstrated that he didn't need to be able to advance in order to win.
So you had Duran ahead on your scorecard after 12 rounds?
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Old 08-25-2007, 09:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
But you could also say Duran let Hagler off the leash as well. He was just doing enough to hang in there competitively with Hagler. Just a bit more authoritive work, more straight right hands combined with combinations, and Hagler would have kissed his title "goodbye".
Well everyone knows i consider Hagler a tad overrated in here but i have to proffer an opinion on this one. There's a reason Duran didn't get busier, didn't get more offensive and was more than content to hang in there with Hagler.

He would have got hammered is why. Many of Haglers best moments are when Duran is forcing the issue more, and slightly surprisingly (even with Duran being smaller) Hagler was the more effective fighter inside. This of course is why Duran hung back far more than normal. Full kudo's to him finding his best strategy and executing it well against the bigger stronger man.

Last edited by Sinew; 05-17-2006 at 01:30 PM.
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Old 08-25-2007, 09:29 PM   #21
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
I've grown weary of hearing how Hagler was intimated by the event, by Duran, or what have you. This fight is a clear illustration of the general tendency to apply criticisms to the past based on knowledge that was unknown at the time. Here's what Hagler did not know in November of 1983:

1. That Duran would be KOd by Hearns the next June.
2. That he himself would steamroller Hearns in April of 85.

Here's what Hagler did know in November 1983:

1. The Duran had fought aggressively in his previous two wins against Cuevas and Moore -and destroyed them both. Both men tried to punch with him and paid dearly. Duran's "backalley baroque" makes that costly.

2. Duran had been dropped twice before and never KO'd in 81 fights.

3. Duran was very inspired and in great condition.
Other things he knew were that Duran had long been a natural lightweight and was the naturally much smaller man. He also knew Benitez (who Hagler wasn't impressed by) had ripped Duran about 13 rounds to 2, he knew about No Mas and had also been beaten by Laing. Duran was never going to be a killer at 160 and Hagler always talked the talk, but in this one failed to walk the walk.

Hagler should hardly have been intimidated by Duran whipping a guy with but 12 fights to his name. This is a guy going by the (self proclaimed) motto of "Destruct and destroy". Monzon himself said later that when you fight the smaller guys moving up you need to be aggressive and use your size advantages, basically. Cuevas had been beaten by the ordinary Roger Stafford right prior. Excellent displays by Duran, but hardly the sort of stuff that should have the Monster that was Hagler shaking in his shoes. Hagler was well known for fobbing off victories such as these and talking it up confidently. In this one, he is a victim of his own reputation.

Quote:
Fact is, Hagler won the fight and towards the end of it, had an eye that was beginning to look like Davey Moore's. Duran eats one-eyed fighters. If Hagler had gone straight at the smaller man, this damage would have occured earlier in the fight and Duran would aim right for that eye like he was doing. It was a heavy risk and as it turns out, an unnecessary one for Hagler to go straight at him.
In all my years i have never seen Hagler make mention of your theory about the eye. Personally i don't go with it.

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Normally, of course it is sensible to take the fight to the smaller man. But Duran was so much more than a smaller man.
So too were Napoles and Griffith, but Monzon kept a steady beat on them and won impressively. The fact is that if Hagler took the fight to Duran more than he did he would have won much easier, and quite possibly have stopped him. Duran was in big big trouble in one of the midrounds then Hagler came out next round and eased the pressure right off. He was apparently wary of Duran's counterpunching skills despite his success and dominance in the previous round. This is a disappointing turn of events from one of the greatest and supposed meanest, and one that a Monzon or Hopkins would not have gone for.

The shame is, Hagler still hadn't learnt his lesson when SRL came around. Again, if he fought the way he talked it quite likely would have been a different turn of events. It didn't take rocket science to know solid steady pressure (if not more) was going to make life very difficult for a guy who hadn't fought in years and was up in the weights. Instead Leonard was allowed to cruise, building up points while saving crucial wind for the latter stages.
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Old 08-25-2007, 09:31 PM   #22
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzsaw
Duran exposed the downward slide of the Marvelous One’s skills. Sugar Ray Leonard was also doing the ringside commentary for that fight and I can just imagine what he was seeing and thinking.
What Duran did was show us how much a master technician could trouble Hagler. Hagler never dominated a technician. His era was full of come forward fighters who he absolutely feasted on most times.
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Old 08-25-2007, 10:00 PM   #23
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Other things he knew were that Duran had long been a natural lightweight and was the naturally much smaller man. He also knew Benitez (who Hagler wasn't impressed by) had ripped Duran about 13 rounds to 2, he knew about No Mas and had also been beaten by Laing. Duran was never going to be a killer at 160 and Hagler always talked the talk, but in this one failed to walk the walk.

Hagler should hardly have been intimidated by Duran whipping a guy with but 12 fights to his name. This is a guy going by the (self proclaimed) motto of "Destruct and destroy". Monzon himself said later that when you fight the smaller guys moving up you need to be aggressive and use your size advantages, basically. Cuevas had been beaten by the ordinary Roger Stafford right prior. Excellent displays by Duran, but hardly the sort of stuff that should have the Monster that was Hagler shaking in his shoes. Hagler was well known for fobbing off victories such as these and talking it up confidently. In this one, he is a victim of his own reputation.


In all my years i have never seen Hagler make mention of your theory about the eye. Personally i don't go with it.


So too were Napoles and Griffith, but Monzon kept a steady beat on them and won impressively. The fact is that if Hagler took the fight to Duran more than he did he would have won much easier, and quite possibly have stopped him. Duran was in big big trouble in one of the midrounds then Hagler came out next round and eased the pressure right off. He was apparently wary of Duran's counterpunching skills despite his success and dominance in the previous round. This is a disappointing turn of events from one of the greatest and supposed meanest, and one that a Monzon or Hopkins would not have gone for.

The shame is, Hagler still hadn't learnt his lesson when SRL came around. Again, if he fought the way he talked it quite likely would have been a different turn of events. It didn't take rocket science to know solid steady pressure (if not more) was going to make life very difficult for a guy who hadn't fought in years and was up in the weights. Instead Leonard was allowed to cruise, building up points while saving crucial wind for the latter stages.
I agree JT. As I said in my earlier post, If Hagler came out smoking he more than likely would have stopped Duran inside 8 rounds. The continual heavy punches and strength of Hagler inside would have been too much for Duran to handle. Hagler definitely bossed Duran inside, no question about it. Thats Duran's office in there, but it was not a place he liked being during the fight. Certainly not for long periods anyway.

I just feel Duran should have worked his hands a bit more, because he was too focused on exclusively using the jab and slipping punches. Duran's great old trick was evident, moving his head just before the point of impact, thus reducing the power from Hagler's landed punches.

We can go on about different aspects of the fight all we want. But when we look at the basics, Duran took a prime Hagler 15 rounds. And he was the only fighter to do so in all of Hagler's successful defenses. A very fine achivement indeed even though his was the loser.
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Old 08-26-2007, 04:23 AM   #24
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
So you had Duran ahead on your scorecard after 12 rounds?
It has been many years JT, but scoring off the television rebroadcast, I indeed had Duran ahead after 12 rounds. A surprising number of those who knew Hagler, and lived in his area agreed with that assessment. (My sister was one of those who knew him.)

Now, please keep in mind that I am always aware that what seems apparent on a television monitor may be very different from what is observed from ringside. (For all his failings, Howard Cosell could be very good at articulating the difference between what the monitor indicated, and what was actually happening in the ring. "That punch made a lot of noise and excited the hometown crowd, but it was partially blocked." Cosell could raise his voice to convey drama and excitement, but he could also be appropriately calm when the audience at his venue was inappropriately roused by flamboyant but ineffective action.)

The most interesting thing Steve Farhood ever wrote that I read was how he scored the Mike Spinks/Eddie Davis fight in favor of Mike as he watched it live from ringside. Later, he rescored the match of a review of the videotaped broadcast, and wound up scoring it in Eddie's favor this time.

I would do the best I could scoring a match at home, but always retain the understanding that what the footage reveals could be deceptive. That's why judges score live from ringside, and why the viewing of footage should be supplemented by a consensus of informed and knowledgeable eyewitness accounts.
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Old 08-26-2007, 04:42 AM   #25
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Duran had a plan that night -- the same he later utilized on Iran Barkley. Counter with right hands to the same eye all night. Try and use the thumb to assist the eye in closing. When the fighter has one eye shut, capitalize.

Hagler was fearful of Duran using his thumb. IIRC, Hagler told his corner that Duran was 'trying to get the thumb in there'.

Hagler was, imo, also a bit awed by the past results of Duran. It seemed evident that he could be outpointed, but not knocked out, and he thrived in slugfests.

Hagler, student of the game as he was, put all this together and decided his best bet was to box him. Little did he know that Duran would surprise him by playing counterpuncher.
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:12 AM   #26
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Hagler never dominated a technician.
Thomas Hearns was a technician. Hagler destroyed him. Duran was a technician. I thought Hagler dominated from the sixth round on. Hagler faced several other technicians on the way up.

"Hagler never dominated a technician" is a bold thing to say, and it's not supported by the historical record.
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:31 AM   #27
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
Thomas Hearns was a technician. Hagler destroyed him. Duran was a technician. I thought Hagler dominated from the sixth round on. Hagler faced several other technicians on the way up.

"Hagler never dominated a technician" is a bold thing to say, and it's not supported by the historical record.
Hearns and Hagler went to war, there wasn't anything technical about this fight whatsoever. Hagler went right after Hearns and Tommy happily obliged.

Duran was a technician yes, and also way over his head weight wise. Tho i agree Hagler was ahead by more than the cards show, Duran's effectiveness standing off Hagler was most surprising. Duran is a better infighting technician than out and out was where he went better than expected.

SRL was a technician, and had Hagler in knots at times. Yes Leonard was aging too with no warm up to boot.

I can't remember Hagler beating any top quality technicians coming up at all. I'm not talking a Sugar Ray Seales level fighter but someone with some class such as Duran and Leonard. Hopkins is a technician but truth be told class technicians at 160 were rarer than hens teeth during Marvins career.
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Old 08-26-2007, 05:38 AM   #28
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Hagler won handily if we're being honest. After initially being star-struck (something that would haunt him again four years later) he boxed sensibily to win around 10-5. Monzon vs Napoles is what a great middleweight champ does to someone stepping up. Let the lighter guy have his day in the sun before trouncing him. I think most expected Marv to do the same after the 6th, instead of asking for Duran's autograph in the clinches. Still, at least he got his gloves signed after the bout. I have one of them, bought on e-bay for 200 quid. It reads:


To Baldy,

Leonard's better than you,

Love,

Roberto.

xxx
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Old 08-26-2007, 06:07 AM   #29
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Quote:
Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Hagler won handily if we're being honest. After initially being star-struck (something that would haunt him again four years later) he boxed sensibily to win around 10-5. Monzon vs Napoles is what a great middleweight champ does to someone stepping up. Let the lighter guy have his day in the sun before trouncing him. I think most expected Marv to do the same after the 6th, instead of asking for Duran's autograph in the clinches. Still, at least he got his gloves signed after the bout. I have one of them, bought on e-bay for 200 quid. It reads:


To Baldy,

Leonard's better than you,

Love,

Roberto.

xxx


And a chilling prophecy it turned out to be!!!
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Old 08-26-2007, 09:19 AM   #30
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
Solid points. But Hagler also knew Duran's last victim was a relatively inexperienced pro who was exposed on the night. Full credit to Duran though as he had some poor performances beforehand, Laing and Benitez. Moore was also the odds makers favourite before a first bell rang.
I don't think that neither Hagler nor his handlers were watching Moore -they were watching Duran handle a larger, younger, faster man with ease. They knew that Duran was not to be underestimated -and they didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbi
Duran v Cuevas. I have to disagree with you that Duran fought aggressively, as he did the opposite apart from when he went in for the kill during the 4th round. His showing against Cuevas would be one of the ones in his career I'd tag "boxing display". He boxed superbly, circling behind the jab, and softening up Cuevas before siezing the right moment to strike. He kept his distance and stood off. It was a very patient display.

Not too sure when you last seen the fight, but with fresh viewing of it I'm sure you'd change your view on how Duran fought that night.
I've watched the fight 57 times and counting. During's style of aggression was not necessarily akin to Pacman's style of aggression. 'Backalley baroque' illustrates Duran's aggressive style well. Duran was picking punches and working the jab against Cuevas, sure. And he jumped in and warred with him whenever he could. At one point in round 3 he disdainly pounded his chin and then went toe-to-toe with Cuevas. The fight heated up fast and ended inside of 4 rounds because Duran was close to him throwing shots -the fact that he spun his man, countered him, jabbed him, and used his vaunted defense does not detract from his aggression -it merely made it more intelligent.
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