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Old 08-27-2007, 04:44 PM   #46
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

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Originally Posted by Sonny Carson
It wasn't close on my card. Hagler couldn't deal with a technician? Sugar Ray couldn't even deal with Duran's defense in the first fight.

Sure fixed it second and third fight didn't he, not to mention the Duran Leonard faced at 147 was far far better equipped than the one Hagler faced at 160. On a P4P basis Marvin would have had fits with the version from Montreal. More than fits actually, Dooran W15.

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Old 08-27-2007, 05:09 PM   #47
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Sure fixed it second and third fight didn't he, not to mention the Duran Leonard faced at 147 was far far better equipped than the one Hagler faced at 160. On a P4P basis Marvin would have had fits with the version from Montreal. More than fits actually, Dooran W15.
Hopkins would have whooped all three. No question in my eyes. Maybe not whopped, but certainly beaten all three.
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:31 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Sure fixed it second and third fight didn't he, not to mention the Duran Leonard faced at 147 was far far better equipped than the one Hagler faced at 160. On a P4P basis Marvin would have had fits with the version from Montreal. More than fits actually, Dooran W15.

Duran from 1980 doesn't have the strength to compete. If Hagler believed him to be an actual threat he wouldn't be arm punching with him, but rather he'd flatten him quickly.
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:39 PM   #49
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Duran from 1980 doesn't have the strength to compete. If Hagler believed him to be an actual threat he wouldn't be arm punching with him, but rather he'd flatten him quickly.
Hagler would have smoked the Duran who beat Leonard in Montreal. Certainly if its a 147lb Duran against a 160lb Hagler. Its simply fantasy anyway, and would not be sanctioned.
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:05 PM   #50
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Sure fixed it second and third fight didn't he, not to mention the Duran Leonard faced at 147 was far far better equipped than the one Hagler faced at 160. On a P4P basis Marvin would have had fits with the version from Montreal. More than fits actually, Dooran W15.
Yeah by running away.
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:55 PM   #51
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

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Originally Posted by Sonny Carson
Yeah by running away.
Just because Leonard moved laterally with Duran and never gave him the opportunity to get into exchanges you can hardly call it negative. Leonard accomplished what he had to do to win the fight after losing the first encounter.

This term "running away" is just a ridiculous statmement to make when a boxer outclasses a fighter from long range with smart defense behind the jab.

Leonard threw Duran a rubik's cube that night, and Duran couldn't solve the puzzle. Tough luck.
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:03 PM   #52
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I hadn't read this when replying above. My answer here is that Hagler had his best and most convincing moments during the closer and more heated action and was the stronger inside fighter in this one. When he stepped on the pedla Duran looked to be in danger of being stopped then Marvin came back and took his foot off the pedal. I really do think his one weakness is not being able to think that well in the ring. Bad tactics, not being able to adapt, not being certain and not reading certain situations well. His great arsenal and the skillset of his era hid these factors well, for the most part.
I can't agree that Duran was ever in danger of being stopped. He got tired early, got a second wind and found a bit of a groove and then faded at the end. I'd be curious to know when you saw him "in danger of being stopped."

Your reasoning behind Hagler's weakness is interesting... and I am curious about whether it will hold up under scrutiny. Be forewarned... I consider the Leonard fight as unindicative of Hagler's prowess in the ring. If you base that observation on 2 fights -one of which he won and the other which is obviously highly controversial (5% of threads out here are devoted to it!), it will take more.

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I really don't think Hagler was intimidated. He started cautiously vs Leonard too, not because he was intimidated by Ray, but the fact that he was intimidated by the magnitude of the occasion. Duran was considered Hagler's first true "Superfight".
Well, that is pure conjecture. Hagler may have been just too convinced that Ray was impotent so he decided to outbox him. Incidentally, he may have indeed outboxed him in 1982...

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
And he should have too. Duran was never known for fighting many fights predominantly from the outside and Hagler had the better of the inside exchanges, which left Roberto with no-where to go. Except outside. From where he did as well as he could. Surprisingly well, tho yes definitely outboxed. I could go with the momentum of other respected posters in here agreeing with the cards, but i have to stay true to myself and agree Hagler won by more than the cards showed.

...But......did he really do this, or did Duran stand off Hagler after finding out he couldn't compete evenly on the inside and it was going to be a dangerous choice of strategy?

Personally i'll go for the latter, and add that this is what disappointed me. Marvin, after finding himself stronger inside allowed Duran to stand off him and make it a tighter fight than it should have been.
I agree that Hagler won by more than the cards showed... albeit slightly. Duran did not get steamrolled and he was not dominated. He was competitive -but clearly lost.

Duran said that he was going to surprise Hagler and everyone else that night. His plan was to not to war with Hagler inside, it was to force Hagler to come in so that Duran could counter and spin. Duran played trickster and in so doing threw Hagler off his game because Hagler thought he was going to fight a bull. Instead, he had to give up the red cape and don horns on his egg.

Duran got winded partly because although he was elusive, he was not mobile -such things are cowardly to him. He stayed inside the perimeter and relied on smarts and skill. At one point Duran pushed Hagler back and Duran himself was propelled backwards off that rock. Hagler didn't budge. Leonard indeed took that strategy and expounded upon it with mobility. Duran did not, in my estimation, have to make an adjustment once he realized that Hagler was too strong inside... he conceded that before the fight and sought to stay at angles, feint, lead, spin, and counter. It was actually very sophisticated stuff if you watch him closely... I think his problem was the strength of Hagler and the ambidexterity which threw Duran off because Hagler would suddenly punch from opposite angles than expected. Duran got tired and was getting caught more than he anticipated which got him more tired.

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I can't agree. His "versatility" (standing off and boxing early) quite likely cost him the fight vs Leonard, and i just know that if he didn't stand off Duran he would have stopped him.
Especially after the 6th i think it was. The time was perfect.
Are you lurching into fallacious thinking? Duran getting KOd was not something that could be safely assumed before Hearns. Shit, or after Hearns. Additionally, what cost him in a fight 4 years after 1983 should not be used to make judgements him when he hadn't experienced that yet. In fact... Hagler was an extremely adept boxer and dealt with Briscoe by boxing, not warring. In the 70s, Hagler was almost as likely to box and give movement before Vito as he was to destruct and destroy (his opponents and the English language).

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Why would he? Because at least he would have had a better excuse from which to defend against almost universal criticism for his performance vs Duran. Almost all agreed Hagler's stock went down and Duran's up after this bout. Hagler copped a lot of criticism. This is fact. All he came up with was that he was wary of Duran's counterpunching.
This is fallacious reasoning. Hagler couldn't read the future. He sought the win and took the win. It is just too easy to knock him because he didn't do what Hearns did 8 months later. Fact is, Hagler fought a far more ready and dangerous Duran than that milk-dud that Hearns faced.

Relevant information is this: the Hands of Stone was known as an extremely adept counter puncher. He had made mincemeat of a muscular and younger fighter and still packed a whallop a mere 6 pounds away from Hagler. It was not an established fact that Duran significantly lost power as a MW... he hadn't stepped up yet! All that was known is that he was one of the greatest fighters who ever lived, hit like hell, was elusive, and a ferocious puncher and counterpuncher. That would have been enough for me to be careful with the man.

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Marvin on the outside is more versatile, but Monzon is far far more adept at solving the different puzzles in front of him, adapting and imposing his style. He was far better at dealing with a diversity of styles. His fights were just full of cool precision, confidence, surety and solid decision.
Okay... but the point remains that Monzon made subtle adjustments in the course of a fight but it was really about imposing his will. His style was not exactly sophisticated but it was very effective. Hagler could be as hard as Chinese Math in there.

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
We saw Duran wilt when Hagler finally opened up, trouble was Marvin didn't, or didn't want to. When a SRL or Duran (or hundreds of others) saw the sign to hit the go button then batten down the hatches because these guys were gonna go hard until you were out of there or they reassessed.
I think that you are selling Hagler very short here. Hagler was a damn good finisher. Mintor. Monroe. Scypion. Lee. Hearns! The list is exhausting. I see Hagler's performance here as understandable caution against a legend.

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
Personally i thought he was definitely wilting, as did the world press.
'Wilt' isn't 'hurt'.

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
We can agree to disagree as in my belief a rock solid aggressive talking 160 pound ATG should not have been taking a negative attitude into a fight against a previously natural 135 pounder past his peak. Monzon agree's. The naturally much bigger man should be at least imposing his size and showing who was boss without neccessarily getting tactically silly.
Usually so. Yes indeed. If you consider the information available at the time and history, I would say you can make a case... but so can't I.

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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1
I'd hardly call Duran a puncher at 160. We'll say Hagler boxed the aggressive come forward fighter.
You're opinion may have been different in November 1983, when his previous two KOs were fresh on the mind. But... okay. I'll take the compromise!
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Old 08-27-2007, 10:23 PM   #53
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

I didn't see Leonard fixing any problems in the second match with Duran. It was a pretty evenly contested fight until Duran quit. Given all we know about Duran's condition, the fact that Leonard didn't dominate all the way is quite telling. It mildly funny to watch the fanboys drool over that fight. I guess after watching their idol taken to school in Montreal, they had to come up with something to redeem their man.

The rubbermatch was a joke. Leonard ran all night. Boxers who rip fans off with that running shit deserve all the criticisms they get. I was happy to see Norris pound Leonard mostly because of how Leonard ripped me off in the third Duran fight. Leonard had a bad habit of running away from shit. He wouldn't give Tommy an immediate rematch. He wouldn't fight Hagler when Marvin was prime. He wouldn't give Hagler a rematch. A great fighter is supposed to take on all the legacy defining challenges. Not Leonard, no sir.

And if I can be blunt about things, anybody who thinks that the Duran of the first Leonard fight would have whipped the 1980 version of Marvelous Marvin Hagler doesn't know jackshit about the sport of boxing. Duran was much more prepared for Hagler when he fought him than he would have been had they met in 1980. Duran had settled into middleweight. He was a hard 160 pounds by that time. He had more years of experience on him by that time, and experience is invaluable when facing a master like Hagler.
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Old 08-27-2007, 11:24 PM   #54
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
I didn't see Leonard fixing any problems in the second match with Duran. It was a pretty evenly contested fight until Duran quit. Given all we know about Duran's condition, the fact that Leonard didn't dominate all the way is quite telling. It mildly funny to watch the fanboys drool over that fight. I guess after watching their idol taken to school in Montreal, they had to come up with something to redeem their man.
Anyone who never seen Leonard fix any problems in the second fight doesn't know anything about boxing. He fought the opposite kind of fight than he did 5 months earlier. Lateral movement, jabs, and lead right hands down the pipe. He simply fixed the problem with superb ring generalship and keeping his distance. While Leonard wasn't particularly busy with his hands, he was preventing Duran from getting into postion to punch. Leonard's movement was the key. He made Duran miss, and made him pay. Stategy entirely different.



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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
The rubbermatch was a joke. Leonard ran all night. Boxers who rip fans off with that running shit deserve all the criticisms they get. I was happy to see Norris pound Leonard mostly because of how Leonard ripped me off in the third Duran fight. Leonard had a bad habit of running away from shit. He wouldn't give Tommy an immediate rematch. He wouldn't fight Hagler when Marvin was prime. He wouldn't give Hagler a rematch. A great fighter is supposed to take on all the legacy defining challenges. Not Leonard, no sir.
It seems the rubbermatch was a joke because Leonard won the fight, if it was roles reversed would you say the same?. I think not. Two trucks colliding provides for entertainment, but one sided fights can also be pleasing on the eye if your not one dimensional when it comes to the sport. Leonard running all night in my your eyes is boxing in mines. Sadly for yourself not every fighter is tuned entering the ring to constantly come forward seeking to get into exchanges, thus making life difficult for themselves when they have other options up their sleeve. Its all about winning.

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Originally Posted by Street Lethal
And if I can be blunt about things, anybody who thinks that the Duran of the first Leonard fight would have whipped the 1980 version of Marvelous Marvin Hagler doesn't know jackshit about the sport of boxing. Duran was much more prepared for Hagler when he fought him than he would have been had they met in 1980. Duran had settled into middleweight. He was a hard 160 pounds by that time. He had more years of experience on him by that time, and experience is invaluable when facing a master like Hagler.
Duran was prepared for Hagler, but certainly not physically. Duran had settled into middleweight?. The same man who was 7 years as lightweight champion in his prime years, then moved up another two divisions before even sharing a ring with Hagler at middleweight. 5 months prior to taking Hagler the distance he won the jr middleweight title, so somehow I don't think he was settled into the weight. You really are having a laugh. Duran was far from hard at 160lbs I can assure you, as he never he reached the limit, weighing in at 156lbs. Even 6 years after the fight he was dwarfed when measuring up against Barkely. Still not a natural middleweight, never was and never would be come to think of it.
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:01 AM   #55
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

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Originally Posted by Sonny Carson
Yeah by running away.
It's called "boxing". SRL, master practitioner of the art of hit and not get hit

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Old 08-28-2007, 05:27 AM   #56
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

I had Hagler up by around 4 points at the time of the final bell.

It wasn't quite as close as some have stated, having said that had Hagler been a tad less cautious he may well have won by a late stoppage. Duran fought valiantly, though never looked like troubling Marv that much throughout much of the contest.
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:28 AM   #57
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I can't agree that Duran was ever in danger of being stopped. He got tired early, got a second wind and found a bit of a groove and then faded at the end. I'd be curious to know when you saw him "in danger of being stopped."
Just went back to the fight and admittedly Duran wasn't as bad off as i thought. Marvin did however seize the iniative in round 6 by getting more aggressive only to revert back to the overly respectful tactics of prior rounds.

I will say this, if Duran was just another average title defense without the big name or reputation i think Marvin would have stopped him with 15 rounds to play with. He would not have been star struck and would have fought with much more intensity. Against a big name with some decent defensive skill he hardly looked like the consumate war warrior he had been made out to be.

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Your reasoning behind Hagler's weakness is interesting... and I am curious about whether it will hold up under scrutiny. Be forewarned... I consider the Leonard fight as unindicative of Hagler's prowess in the ring. If you base that observation on 2 fights -one of which he won and the other which is obviously highly controversial (5% of threads out here are devoted to it!), it will take more.
Trouble is we don't have much to go on. It was an ordinary era for top middleweights and it took 3 smaller guys to spark it up. Marvin was murder on your average come forward fighter. It's interesting that two of the three best fighters he defended against, one a good technician (he had to be in this one) and one a speedster showed a very different side of Marvin Hagler.

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Well, that is pure conjecture. Hagler may have been just too convinced that Ray was impotent so he decided to outbox him. Incidentally, he may have indeed outboxed him in 1982...
Not as much conjecture as the eye theory IMO when he publically stated different. Even old Goody said immediately after the bout that Marvin showed Duran too much respect. Not a bad apple that one.

Marvin stated that he fought orthodox and tried to box because Leonard expected differently. Why in gods name a great like Marvin (with all the natural advantages here) was flustered enough to worry about what Leonard expected rather than simply thinking who cares what he's waiting for i'll mash him anyway, i will never know.

Yes Marvin possibly would have outboxed Ray in 82, he certainly should have given the size advantages. Then again, after seeing the short circuiting in 87 who could be certain.

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I agree that Hagler won by more than the cards showed... albeit slightly. Duran did not get steamrolled and he was not dominated. He was competitive -but clearly lost.
Total agreement here.

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Duran said that he was going to surprise Hagler and everyone else that night. His plan was to not to war with Hagler inside, it was to force Hagler to come in so that Duran could counter and spin. Duran played trickster and in so doing threw Hagler off his game because Hagler thought he was going to fight a bull. Instead, he had to give up the red cape and don horns on his egg.
Marvin didn't have to give up anything but his passiveness. Watch him win the first 30 seconds of most rounds then switch modes allowing Duran to come back in quite a few. Duran the trickster still could have and should have been bullied around and beaten convincingly. Of this i have no doubt, no matter how highly one thinks of Roberto.

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Duran got winded partly because although he was elusive, he was not mobile -such things are cowardly to him.
Duran was also 4 pounds heavier than vs Moore, 4 1/2 more than Cuevas and also had 3 steaks early fight day. The weight was his highest since Jimmy Batten in 1982.

Gone was the sharpness and continuity of these bouts.

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He stayed inside the perimeter and relied on smarts and skill. At one point Duran pushed Hagler back and Duran himself was propelled backwards off that rock. Hagler didn't budge. Leonard indeed took that strategy and expounded upon it with mobility. Duran did not, in my estimation, have to make an adjustment once he realized that Hagler was too strong inside... he conceded that before the fight and sought to stay at angles, feint, lead, spin, and counter. It was actually very sophisticated stuff if you watch him closely... I think his problem was the strength of Hagler and the ambidexterity which threw Duran off because Hagler would suddenly punch from opposite angles than expected. Duran got tired and was getting caught more than he anticipated which got him more tired.
I'll agree to all this and also add the weight factor as i did above.

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Are you lurching into fallacious thinking? Duran getting KOd was not something that could be safely assumed before Hearns. Shit, or after Hearns. Additionally, what cost him in a fight 4 years after 1983 should not be used to make judgements him when he hadn't experienced that yet. In fact... Hagler was an extremely adept boxer and dealt with Briscoe by boxing, not warring. In the 70s, Hagler was almost as likely to box and give movement before Vito as he was to destruct and destroy (his opponents and the English language).
Fair call, but i still ponder that if Duran wasn't the marquee name just how things would have ended up. Not to take anything away from Duran.

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This is fallacious reasoning. Hagler couldn't read the future. He sought the win and took the win. It is just too easy to knock him because he didn't do what Hearns did 8 months later.
Hagler copped it from all and sundrey and lost far more than he gained in this bout. Criticism came from every corner. This was pre Hearns when comments weren't taking this destruction into account.

Quote:
Fact is, Hagler fought a far more ready and dangerous Duran than that milk-dud that Hearns faced.
I'll take Hearns by KO over the guy Hagler faced too. Hagler made Duran look better than he really was this day. Hearns was not one to give any such leeway. If anything, his problem was too far the other way at times.
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:28 AM   #58
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Default Re: Who Thought Duran Hagler Was Close

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Relevant information is this: the Hands of Stone was known as an extremely adept counter puncher. He had made mincemeat of a muscular and younger fighter and still packed a whallop a mere 6 pounds away from Hagler.
A very very inexperienced and open one not in the same stratosphere (on soooo many levels) as Hagler.

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It was not an established fact that Duran significantly lost power as a MW... he hadn't stepped up yet!
It was an established fact Duran lost power at 147 and pounded Moore from asshole to breakfast before finally getting the stoppage. He pounded the guy unmercilessy with his cleanest punches and the stoppage was from severe accumulation. Given these facts you didn't really expect him to regain the power from his halcyon days at 135 when stepping up to did you? Hagler knew full well that he pounded Moore for ages.

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All that was known is that he was one of the greatest fighters who ever lived, hit like hell, was elusive, and a ferocious puncher and counterpuncher. That would have been enough for me to be careful with the man.
To be honest i think you are making a bit of a mountain out of a molehill. Roberto wasn't coming in to fight some star struck rookie, he was coming in to face the self proclaimed meanest fighter in boxing. A guy that had been bent on his own recent destructions over bigger and better men than Roberto. Roberto should have been the one with something to fear, not Hagler.

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Okay... but the point remains that Monzon made subtle adjustments in the course of a fight but it was really about imposing his will. His style was not exactly sophisticated but it was very effective. Hagler could be as hard as Chinese Math in there.
To a Hamsho maybe. Monzon never confused himself and really was all the things i said.

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I think that you are selling Hagler very short here. Hagler was a damn good finisher. Mintor. Monroe. Scypion. Lee. Hearns! The list is exhausting. I see Hagler's performance here as understandable caution against a legend.
Yet he couldn't finish two much smaller men that were smarter and more elusive than the above.

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'Wilt' isn't 'hurt'.
Fair call, but i would have loved to have seen some sustained pressure.

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You're opinion may have been different in November 1983, when his previous two KOs were fresh on the mind. But... okay. I'll take the compromise!
As stated, Roberto pounded a hapless Moore for an eternity. I can compromise tho.
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:30 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by JohnThomas1

Yet he couldn't finish two much smaller men that were smarter and more elusive than the above.
How was Duran elusive? He went flat footed with Hagler all night.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:24 AM   #60
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How was Duran elusive? He went flat footed with Hagler all night.
Duran never quite showed the the same movement that Leonard did 4 years later, but he was moving more than he usually does against Hagler. His was elusive mainly because of his ability at slipping and blocking punches. Hagler actually got through with more punches than people give him credit for, but they were not serious blows as Duran moved his head at the moment of impact. Upperbody movement was also another area that Duran implemented well.
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