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Old 04-26-2009, 01:01 AM   #31
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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Originally Posted by GPater11093 View Post
but wait a minute i dont think Leonard should have done it and it never should have happened

but Lalonde was the Light heavy champ and they fought at under th LHW limt so his title should have been at stake
Technically it goes under the rules, but Lalonde was weighing in 168 and he was 175 pound champ. And then he was fighting for two titles. Ridiculous.. Leonard just wanted to beat Hearns to it, but Hearns won his 5th title 3 days before with Kinchen.
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Old 04-26-2009, 04:22 AM   #32
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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Technically it goes under the rules, but Lalonde was weighing in 168 and he was 175 pound champ. And then he was fighting for two titles. Ridiculous.. Leonard just wanted to beat Hearns to it, but Hearns won his 5th title 3 days before with Kinchen.
i know its a technicallity bbut there was bothing against the rules in tha fight
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Old 04-26-2009, 05:30 AM   #33
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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How many times did Leonard defend his titles?,

It's all well and good to say he would of beaten this guy or that guy, but when you defend your title you get matched up with diferent styles, and some that you might have trouble with, not to say he would of lost, but thats why they get in the ring and not just declare the winner by who was the more talented.

Great post I totally agree. I rate Leonard very highly but he lacks a lot of defences on his record, as we know. It's difficult for a fighter to consitently 'get up' for the Bruce Finch's of the world and you'll find they're the kind of fights that champions often lose.
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Old 04-26-2009, 05:48 AM   #34
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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Great post I totally agree. I rate Leonard very highly but he lacks a lot of defences on his record, as we know. It's difficult for a fighter to consitently 'get up' for the Bruce Finch's of the world and you'll find they're the kind of fights that champions often lose.
Esp with all the titles around these days, all you need to do is chose the weaker out of possilbly four champ's to win a belt, so winning in a few differrent div' is not as hard as it once was. Makes you think alot more of guys like Armstrong.

I'm still new to boxing and don't know that much yet and have heaps to learn.

I think you need alot more then talent to be the best, it's not that easy getting up at 5am to do road work. Duran was light weight king for what ten years then took out the bigger, stonger and younger Leonard, then still had a great career. Truly one of the best.
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Old 04-26-2009, 05:59 AM   #35
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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Esp with all the titles around these days, all you need to do is chose the weaker out of possilbly four champ's to win a belt, so winning in a few differrent div' is not as hard as it once was. Makes you think alot more of guys like Armstrong.


I'm still new to boxing and don't know that much yet and have heaps to learn.

I think you need alot more then talent to be the best, it's not that easy getting up at 5am to do road work. Duran was light weight king for what ten years then took out the bigger, stonger and younger Leonard, then still had a great career. Truly one of the best.

Yep, but Duran did it too. The Barkley selection came instead of fighting (and almost certainly losing) to Nunn and Kalambay. Great achievement nonetheless, better than Leonard over Lalonde mainly because Duran was nearly two decades from his first world title win. Still, I always found it refreshing when Arguello insisted on fighting Pryor at 140, when he could have selected a far easier option beforehand (Haley I think at the time?) and become a four-time champ. Records and titles often mean little these days. Janitor's post earlier is right on the money in this regard.
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:07 AM   #36
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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Yep, but Duran did it too. The Barkley selection came instead of fighting (and almost certainly losing) to Nunn and Kalambay. Great achievement nonetheless, better than Leonard over Lalonde mainly because Duran was nearly two decades from his first world title win. Still, I always found it refreshing when Arguello insisted on fighting Pryor at 140, when he could have selected a far easier option beforehand (Haley I think at the time?) and become a four-time champ. Records and titles often mean little these days. Janitor's post earlier is right on the money in this regard.
Barkley was still very dangerous, he did beat the Motor City Cobra Twice and Duran was alot smaller.

I cannot fault some one like Arguello for trying, Pryor took some good shots and would have been hell for alot of boxers.

Their is no shame not conquering everest multiple times if you give it a go.
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:14 AM   #37
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

Yeah, Iran was a lot more dangerous than Lalonde, but it was hardly Leonard's fault that the light-heavyweight division had become the weakest in boxing (a title it would hold for some time). Still, I don't think he'd have made the challenge if the Seventies crowd were at their peaks in 1988 and personally I'd have preferred it if he'd stayed at middleweight and took on the likes of Nunn, McCallum etc (or even the Tate and Olajides of this world).
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:29 AM   #38
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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Yeah, Iran was a lot more dangerous than Lalonde, but it was hardly Leonard's fault that the light-heavyweight division had become the weakest in boxing (a title it would hold for some time). Still, I don't think he'd have made the challenge if the Seventies crowd were at their peaks in 1988 and personally I'd have preferred it if he'd stayed at middleweight and took on the likes of Nunn, McCallum etc (or even the Tate and Olajides of this world).

There might have been a reason he did not take on McCallum etc.. on, or to stay around in middle weight after Hagler.

I like Leonard, but there is something about him,that stops me from liking him more.
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:35 AM   #39
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

The fact that he's an unbearable, humourless prick is probably why. Fabulous fighter nonetheless. I remember him as a great welter with some of the better wins in the divisions history and a great win over Hagler. Not the bloke who beat Lalonde and the like. There's too many on here who don't give him enough credit despite it being obvious how excellent he was (still, they're countered by fanboys who want to give him great credit for Lalonde, yet brush aside the Norris embarrassment).
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Old 04-26-2009, 06:43 AM   #40
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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The fact that he's an unbearable, humourless prick is probably why. Fabulous fighter nonetheless. I remember him as a great welter with some of the better wins in the divisions history and a great win over Hagler. Not the bloke who beat Lalonde and the like. There's too many on here who don't give him enough credit despite it being obvious how excellent he was (still, they're countered by fanboys who want to give him great credit for Lalonde, yet brush aside the Norris embarrassment).

I watched the Norris bout today and he was just to quick for Leonard.

Has Leonard ever fought any one that quick before?.

I don't think he beat Hagler, very close, but Halger was the champ and he pressed the action for most if not all of the bout. Leonard should of had a point taken off I think (he was not even warned for the low blow). All the shoe shining at the last 10 seconds did not win him the margority of the rounds for me. But still a great showing, pity he waited for Hagler to slow down.
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:45 AM   #41
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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I watched the Norris bout today and he was just to quick for Leonard.

Has Leonard ever fought any one that quick before?.

I don't think he beat Hagler, very close, but Halger was the champ and he pressed the action for most if not all of the bout. Leonard should of had a point taken off I think (he was not even warned for the low blow). All the shoe shining at the last 10 seconds did not win him the margority of the rounds for me. But still a great showing, pity he waited for Hagler to slow down.

I've told people here I was in attendance at one of Marvin's sessions the month before he faced Sugar Ray Leonard yet no one brings up this topic or has once asked me about it. You have to expect that someone, somewhere on these forums would have to have seen him live and that would be me.

Marvin looked horrible, didn't come close to hitting the first two of the Weaver triplets and spent most his time just covering from the flurries. These three were not even pros so far as I have seen.

This proves to me that it was not the greatness of Leonard or his smarts or Hagler's inability to cope with boxers-none of that, which led to the accomplishment of dethroning the once great Hagler.

Marvin was just in a state of decline which at first was gradual but over the years steepened. We know Hagler could not go on forever but you know how Ray's fans like to pretend

This version Hagler was greatly scaled down, a shadow, an imposter and I knew from what I saw at the sparring sessions that he was very much at the end of his career. But dont tell rays fans that. They prefer to use the language "Hagler was a little past it" or "STARTING to decline"

The youtube video where Ollie Dunlap tells the camera "Ray turns to me after the Mugabi fight and says I can beat him. I want to fight him" is all bogus

And to back me up, on the same video Leonard's brother puts on an act surprised upon hearing sports announcement that Ray is meeting Hagler in the ring "Sugar Ray Leonard is fighting Hagler? I said what!?!" This all came months later after Ray's comment

How dumb do they think we are?

Besides, Ray worked Marvin's fights on HBO since his first defense starting on Feb. 1981. WHy did he not say "I can beat him, I want to fight him" in those days?

His supporters say "well he couldnt, he had no interest then"

but the proof shows he did when he covered Marvin's third defense commenting "how much he wants to meet Marvin and give him an opportunity"

He says it more than once so it must have been on his mind

Which all proves all he was ever interested was waiting for Marv to slow down to his level, taking 5-6 years in all

To answer your last question; Has Leonard ever met an opponent with the speed of Norris. The answer is no.

By the way, I made money off this fight so the outcome pleased me that much more.

Norris had the answer to anything Ray could come up with because he was always two steps ahead. Could be the reason why he put Hagler on hold this long--to avoid this level of embarrassment.

Even with Leonard's considerable edge (if the fight were held in the present, no one would take Terry) but Terry didn't let Ray intimidate him or get into his head that first round, unlike a rusty and unsure Hagler.

Instead, Terry took charge and Ray was the one forced to back down early, which he hadnt counted on. To be fair to Ray, he did try to take the fight to Terry in the second. he made it close but in the end, the competitor in Norris came to the surface and he kicked it into higher gear. The result: Leonard on the canvas.

In the third you could see a route in the making, even a mismatch as Norris set up the winning combination for which leonard had no answer. A jab, right to the body and left uppercut sliced thru the guard, stiking with frightening impact and turning his guts into jelly.

The fight was essentially over at this point. Ray had no more will to fight back, and was content just to survive. For him it would be a sort of moral victory if you can believe that. And knowing the kind of man Leonard was-one of such low character, I do.

To him I said, good riddance, may we never see your like again. How fitting it was to see him exposed for what he was and to end his career in shame and humiliation.
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:53 AM   #42
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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I watched the Norris bout today and he was just to quick for Leonard.

Has Leonard ever fought any one that quick before?.

I don't think he beat Hagler, very close, but Halger was the champ and he pressed the action for most if not all of the bout. Leonard should of had a point taken off I think (he was not even warned for the low blow). All the shoe shining at the last 10 seconds did not win him the margority of the rounds for me. But still a great showing, pity he waited for Hagler to slow down.

Well, I can see by this post you're not going to give Leonard any credit either, so it's not worth my while discussing it with you. Enjoy the rest of the show.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:03 AM   #43
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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Well, I can see by this post you're not going to give Leonard any credit either, so it's not worth my while discussing it with you. Enjoy the rest of the show.
I do give him credit, but wish he did it a few years earlier. It was a close fight.

Last edited by Gesta; 04-26-2009 at 09:57 AM.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:06 AM   #44
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

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I've told people here I was in attendance at one of Marvin's sessions the month before he faced Sugar Ray Leonard yet no one brings up this topic or has once asked me about it. You have to expect that someone, somewhere on these forums would have to have seen him live and that would be me.

Marvin looked horrible, didn't come close to hitting the first two of the Weaver triplets and spent most his time just covering from the flurries. These three were not even pros so far as I have seen.

This proves to me that it was not the greatness of Leonard or his smarts or Hagler's inability to cope with boxers-none of that, which led to the accomplishment of dethroning the once great Hagler.

Marvin was just in a state of decline which at first was gradual but over the years steepened. We know Hagler could not go on forever but you know how Ray's fans like to pretend

This version Hagler was greatly scaled down, a shadow, an imposter and I knew from what I saw at the sparring sessions that he was very much at the end of his career. But dont tell rays fans that. They prefer to use the language "Hagler was a little past it" or "STARTING to decline"

The youtube video where Ollie Dunlap tells the camera "Ray turns to me after the Mugabi fight and says I can beat him. I want to fight him" is all bogus

And to back me up, on the same video Leonard's brother puts on an act surprised upon hearing sports announcement that Ray is meeting Hagler in the ring "Sugar Ray Leonard is fighting Hagler? I said what!?!" This all came months later after Ray's comment

How dumb do they think we are?

Besides, Ray worked Marvin's fights on HBO since his first defense starting on Feb. 1981. WHy did he not say "I can beat him, I want to fight him" in those days?

His supporters say "well he couldnt, he had no interest then"

but the proof shows he did when he covered Marvin's third defense commenting "how much he wants to meet Marvin and give him an opportunity"

He says it more than once so it must have been on his mind

Which all proves all he was ever interested was waiting for Marv to slow down to his level, taking 5-6 years in all

To answer your last question; Has Leonard ever met an opponent with the speed of Norris. The answer is no.

By the way, I made money off this fight so the outcome pleased me that much more.

Norris had the answer to anything Ray could come up with because he was always two steps ahead. Could be the reason why he put Hagler on hold this long--to avoid this level of embarrassment.

Even with Leonard's considerable edge (if the fight were held in the present, no one would take Terry) but Terry didn't let Ray intimidate him or get into his head that first round, unlike a rusty and unsure Hagler.

Instead, Terry took charge and Ray was the one forced to back down early, which he hadnt counted on. To be fair to Ray, he did try to take the fight to Terry in the second. he made it close but in the end, the competitor in Norris came to the surface and he kicked it into higher gear. The result: Leonard on the canvas.

In the third you could see a route in the making, even a mismatch as Norris set up the winning combination for which leonard had no answer. A jab, right to the body and left uppercut sliced thru the guard, stiking with frightening impact and turning his guts into jelly.

The fight was essentially over at this point. Ray had no more will to fight back, and was content just to survive. For him it would be a sort of moral victory if you can believe that. And knowing the kind of man Leonard was-one of such low character, I do.

To him I said, good riddance, may we never see your like again. How fitting it was to see him exposed for what he was and to end his career in shame and humiliation.

Leonard did show heart to last till the end. The Hagler that beat Sibon was a diferent kettle of fish.
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Old 04-26-2009, 02:47 PM   #45
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Default Re: Leonard Does NOT Deserve To Be Recognized As 5 Divison Champ!!

I have had people argue that he should only be recognized as a two-division champion since junior divisions are suspect categories and split non-linear titles are not legitimate. They say to me, why should Leonard get more recognition than, say, Armstrong? Amstrong won three linear world titles. No junior titles or non-linear titles in his list. I think it is a compelling argument.
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