Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > General Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-26-2007, 04:19 PM   #1
Jack
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Posts: 11,319
vCash: 15000
Default What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

I got into this debate after the Hopkins/Wright fight, when some people were, foolishly, comparing the resumes of these three fighters, so I thought I'd bring the topic back, and pick their records apart.

Obviously all three of these fighters fought a lot of elite fighters who moved up from the weleterweight division, but when you compare what they actually did at 160, it's incomparable.

Hopkins beat De La Hoya and Trinidad. These wins put him on the map in the mainstream. However, who did Tito and DLH beat themselves?

De La Hoya struggled with, and despite being a big DLH fan, probably should have lost, against Felix Sturm. right after that, DLH gets beaten by Hopkins. Big ****ing deal

Tito, again, despite being a favourite of mine, has no names on his record at 160. He looked fantastic at that weight, but it was clearly decieving. His best win was over Joppy, and he later proved his power, his main attribute, didn't carry to 160lbs against Mayorga. The other win was against the garbage Cherifi, and the other two fighters against elite opposition lasted 24 rounds and he probably won less than 5.

Winky Wright, His latest win, was flabby and out of shape at 170lbs. He, a naturally 154lber, could NOT carry the weight. He was gassed by the 9th round despite an usually low punch output.





Now, lets look at Hagler.

His three best wins are over Hearns, Leonard and Duran.

With Hearns, people always talk about him bein a natural 147lber. Nonsense. He was 154lbs at his best and carried weight very well. He DID defeat some big names at higher weights than that, and took a belt over the really good Virgil Hill at 175lbs.

People say Duran was a lightweight. Whilst true, he was also a top class fighter at the higher weights too. He beat a really tough Iran Barkley, who is better than anyone Hopkins has beaten, at 160lbs, despite being old and fat.

Leonard also won a light heavyweight belt, beating the tough Donny Lalonde in spectacular fashion. Had he oved up in weight before he was shot, he would have done a lot more at 160 or higher.

The point is, the people Hagler beat WERE good at 160lbs or higher, unlike Hopkins' light opposition.





Monzon beat Valdez, who was a class act himself, and beat other ATG middleweights.

Napoles, a welterweight, had a career much like Tito at middleweight, but was better.

Emile Grittih manages to beat Briscoe at 160, which was a really good win. Again, another Tito but better.

Benvenuti shouldn't need any justification, just look at is record. He may be better than Hopkins himself and definetly anyone Hopkins beat.









My point is, Hopkins best wins are against Tarver, Eastman and Johnson. Better than Monzon or Hagler? No chance. People get too tied up in his defences. Put me against 30 spastics, and I'd have a 30-0 record too

Plus he also has his losses to Jones and the lacklustre Taylor. Struggling with Mercado doesn't help either.



Hopkins is a fighter who scrapes into the top 10 at middleweight. Anything higher is overrating his resume.
Jack is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 08-26-2007, 04:20 PM   #2
lefthook31
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: in a boxing gym near you
Posts: 10,432
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

At this point not much in my opinion, other than compeititon. Hopkins would have fought well against all of the past greats at his best.
lefthook31 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 04:38 PM   #3
Stewbear
Journeyman
ESB Jr Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 271
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

T
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
I got into this debate after the Hopkins/Wright fight, when some people were, foolishly, comparing the resumes of these three fighters, so I thought I'd bring the topic back, and pick their records apart.

Obviously all three of these fighters fought a lot of elite fighters who moved up from the weleterweight division, but when you compare what they actually did at 160, it's incomparable.

Hopkins beat De La Hoya and Trinidad. These wins put him on the map in the mainstream. However, who did Tito and DLH beat themselves?

De La Hoya struggled with, and despite being a big DLH fan, probably should have lost, against Felix Sturm. right after that, DLH gets beaten by Hopkins. Big ****ing deal

Tito, again, despite being a favourite of mine, has no names on his record at 160. He looked fantastic at that weight, but it was clearly decieving. His best win was over Joppy, and he later proved his power, his main attribute, didn't carry to 160lbs against Mayorga. The other win was against the garbage Cherifi, and the other two fighters against elite opposition lasted 24 rounds and he probably won less than 5.

Winky Wright, His latest win, was flabby and out of shape at 170lbs. He, a naturally 154lber, could NOT carry the weight. He was gassed by the 9th round despite an usually low punch output.





Now, lets look at Hagler.

His three best wins are over Hearns, Leonard and Duran.

With Hearns, people always talk about him bein a natural 147lber. Nonsense. He was 154lbs at his best and carried weight very well. He DID defeat some big names at higher weights than that, and took a belt over the really good Virgil Hill at 175lbs.

People say Duran was a lightweight. Whilst true, he was also a top class fighter at the higher weights too. He beat a really tough Iran Barkley, who is better than anyone Hopkins has beaten, at 160lbs, despite being old and fat.

Leonard also won a light heavyweight belt, beating the tough Donny Lalonde in spectacular fashion. Had he oved up in weight before he was shot, he would have done a lot more at 160 or higher.

The point is, the people Hagler beat WERE good at 160lbs or higher, unlike Hopkins' light opposition.





Monzon beat Valdez, who was a class act himself, and beat other ATG middleweights.

Napoles, a welterweight, had a career much like Tito at middleweight, but was better.

Emile Grittih manages to beat Briscoe at 160, which was a really good win. Again, another Tito but better.

Benvenuti shouldn't need any justification, just look at is record. He may be better than Hopkins himself and definetly anyone Hopkins beat.









My point is, Hopkins best wins are against Tarver, Eastman and Johnson. Better than Monzon or Hagler? No chance. People get too tied up in his defences. Put me against 30 spastics, and I'd have a 30-0 record too

Plus he also has his losses to Jones and the lacklustre Taylor. Struggling with Mercado doesn't help either.



Hopkins is a fighter who scrapes into the top 10 at middleweight. Anything higher is overrating his resume.
Telling it like it is
Hopkins is a solid champion, that has been built up into a legend by the american press.
Stewbear is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 04:39 PM   #4
thewoo
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 3,868
vCash: 950
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Tito, again, despite being a favourite of mine, has no names on his record at 160. He looked fantastic at that weight, but it was clearly decieving. His best win was over Joppy, and he later proved his power, his main attribute, didn't carry to 160lbs against Mayorga. The other win was against the garbage Cherifi, and the other two fighters against elite opposition lasted 24 rounds and he probably won less than 5.
Before the hopkins fight Tito was coming off of a devastating KO win over william joppy who was a long reigning titlist who fought 39 legitamite middleweights and a handfull of light heavy weights. Tito was the only one able to KO him in such fashion. Aside from winky and hopkins Tito KO'd all his opponents at middleweight and both of those guys beat him by avoiding his power altogether because they both respected it. I think it's safe to say that he did carry the power to 160
thewoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 05:00 PM   #5
Executioner
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,800
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

No one else demolished Joppy the way Tito did. And this was AFTER Trinidad smashed him to smitherines.
Executioner is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 05:04 PM   #6
peter5
Marco.A.Barrera
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,871
vCash: 1562
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blocky
Hopkins would kick Haglers ass and have Monzon for breakfeast the next morning.

The only thing that seperates these guys is about 10-15 years for which the media was able to build Haglers career up while Hopkins was on the rise

Give Hopkins another 10-15 years and there will a new middleweight that everyone is like 'Aw shit, he ain't nothing on Hopkins, Hagler and Monzon'
bullshit, monzon would annihilate them both! Tito was nothing but an overblown welterweight! go figure!
peter5 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 05:09 PM   #7
aliwasthegreatest
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 994
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

to Taylors credit i think he would have if Joppy hadn't gone in survival mode
aliwasthegreatest is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 05:27 PM   #8
box03
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,127
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

hopkins is a better boxer but hagler is a better fighter Hopkins would of lasted in any era his fighting style has kept him safe aside from his fight with mercado the mans never been hurt. But he does have the names the other guys you mentioned and hes still adding names at the ripe old age of 42 if hagler and hopkins ever fought in both there primes i believe hopkins would win just on pure boxing skill alone and the fact that he is extremely hard to hit flush hopkins would just frustrate and play with to a unanimous decision win
box03 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 05:50 PM   #9
Illmatic
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 3,045
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Hopkins beat De La Hoya and Trinidad. These wins put him on the map in the mainstream. However, who did Tito and DLH beat themselves?

De La Hoya struggled with, and despite being a big DLH fan, probably should have lost, against Felix Sturm. right after that, DLH gets beaten by Hopkins. Big ****ing deal

Tito, again, despite being a favourite of mine, has no names on his record at 160. He looked fantastic at that weight, but it was clearly decieving. His best win was over Joppy, and he later proved his power, his main attribute, didn't carry to 160lbs against Mayorga.
Ummm....Mayorga had an iron jaw before Tito. And Tito still knocked him out.


Quote:
Now, lets look at Hagler.

His three best wins are over Hearns, Leonard and Duran.
I checked boxrec, and it still says Leonard beat Hagler. Just b/c Hagler's been crying about it for 20 years doesnt mean that you have to as well. So, lets make that two.

Quote:
Iran Barkley, who is better than anyone Hopkins has beaten, at 160lbs, despite being old and fat.
Barkley was better than DLH, Tito, Tarver, Wright, Johnson?

Quote:
Leonard also won a light heavyweight belt, beating the tough Donny Lalonde in spectacular fashion. Had he oved up in weight before he was shot, he would have done a lot more at 160 or higher.
okay, he was a great fighter...a great fighter Hagler lost to.

Quote:
The point is, the people Hagler beat WERE good at 160lbs or higher, unlike Hopkins' light opposition.
Who? B/c Hearns won a title at 175? Well, Johnson won a CHAMPIONSHIP at 175 and he's not even in the top 3 of Hopkins best wins.

Hopkins has surpassed Hagler.
Illmatic is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 06:00 PM   #10
Smith
Monzon-like
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 2,985
vCash: 484
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmatic
Ummm....Mayorga had an iron jaw before Tito. And Tito still knocked him out.And Mayorga went on to great things didn't he? ...Erm, wait no.....

I checked boxrec, and it still says Leonard beat Hagler. Just b/c Hagler's been crying about it for 20 years doesnt mean that you have to as well. So, lets make that two.True

Barkley was better than DLH, Tito, Tarver, Wright, Johnson? I would say so, yes.Barkley in my eyes is better than DLH,Tito & Johnson, and on par with Wright

Hopkins has surpassed HaglerNah, he hasnt.
And in the end of the Day, Monzon surpasses both fighters anyway, if Carlos was American he would be considered top ten P4P easily

& Jack, ****ing great article, i agree 100%
Smith is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 06:03 PM   #11
aliwasthegreatest
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 994
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

not much
aliwasthegreatest is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 06:34 PM   #12
Jack
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Posts: 11,319
vCash: 15000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmatic
Ummm....Mayorga had an iron jaw before Tito. And Tito still knocked him out.
I don't care how good Mayorga's chin was. It's pretty clear that his power wasn't as reliable as it was at 160lbs. As his main asset, if his power was as good at 160lbs as it was 147lbs, he would have achieved more, but it obviously wasn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmatic
I checked boxrec, and it still says Leonard beat Hagler. Just b/c Hagler's been crying about it for 20 years doesnt mean that you have to as well. So, lets make that two.
Fair enough. I hope you have this same stance if I claim Bernard Hopkins is inferior to Jermain Taylor, because he lost to him twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmatic
Barkley was better than DLH, Tito, Tarver, Wright, Johnson?
Better than DLH or Tito P4P? absolutely no way. Ranks higher H2H at middleweight? Absolutely. He also ranks above Wright at 170lbs, head to head, and would beat Tarver and Johnson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmatic
okay, he was a great fighter...a great fighter Hagler lost to.
Fair enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmatic
Who? B/c Hearns won a title at 175? Well, Johnson won a CHAMPIONSHIP at 175 and he's not even in the top 3 of Hopkins best wins.
A fair point I suppose, but it isn't something I said anyway. My point was the welterweights Hagler and Monzon were elite and proved themselves at higher weights. Like I said, Johnson is one of Hopkins' best wins.

There's a bit of difference in saying a welterweight won a light heavy title, and a light heavy did. This kind of argument would work if if it was De La Hoya who collected a belt at 175lbs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Illmatic
Hopkins has surpassed Hagler.
Bollocks. By doing what? What you've done is fnid a few things I wrote which you disagree with, yet if you are right about them, which you aren't, it still isn't enough to say that hopkins is better than either. Instead of picking apart the small, somewhat asinine points, why not challenge the bulk of my argument which states that Hopkins hasn't surpassed either? You clearly disagree with my main opinion, so why don't you challenge it?

And Boyd, thanks, mate. Just seeing your name I remembered about that wallpaper I'd said I'd do for you. 'Cause you haven't been around, or I just haven't seen your posts, I forgot I'll sort it out soon for you
Jack is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 06:36 PM   #13
Jack
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Posts: 11,319
vCash: 15000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLovin
Hopkins also fought allot more elite fighters !
No, he didn't. Name the 10 best fighters all three men fought, and tell me with a straight face Hopkins opposition was the best.

And just for you, dickhead, Roy Jones > Bernard Hopkins
Jack is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 07:12 PM   #14
Marnoff
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,596
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by box03
hopkins is a better boxer but hagler is a better fighter Hopkins would of lasted in any era his fighting style has kept him safe aside from his fight with mercado the mans never been hurt. But he does have the names the other guys you mentioned and hes still adding names at the ripe old age of 42 if hagler and hopkins ever fought in both there primes i believe hopkins would win just on pure boxing skill alone and the fact that he is extremely hard to hit flush hopkins would just frustrate and play with to a unanimous decision win
Hopkins isn't a fighter? Watch him in his prime. Honestly, ****ing morons, watch him in his prime before speaking.
Marnoff is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-2007, 07:14 PM   #15
Marnoff
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 12,596
vCash: 1000
Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack
Now, lets look at Hagler.

His three best wins are over Hearns, Leonard and Duran.
He lost to Leonard. That's all I have to say. Your post is a ****ing joke. I could also elaborate in that he barely squeaked by Duran, but there's no need. You seem to not have watched the fights, or even have checked their records, as this demonstrates.
Marnoff is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > General Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013