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Old 08-27-2007, 02:32 PM   #61
Shareef
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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Originally Posted by McLovin
Hagler is Taylor made for Hopkins ! A short southpaw that comes forward . Hopkins would box his ears off ...
You have clearly not seen enough of hagler and if i were to guess have seen his fights agianst hearns, mugabi, SRL. Hagler was a very good boxer from either orthadox or southpaw who good also brawl and mix it up. His reach was very long prolly longer than Hopkins. Hagler could pump his jab all night mixing up beautiful combinations.

The comparison of Hagler fighting jones in 95 comparing it to hopkins fighting taylor is pure garbage. Some people age better than others by this reasoning you might as well have hopkins p4p he is doing better than SRR, SRL, Ali, etc at his age. Hagler had lots of more fights, tougher fights, against tougher competitions than Hopkins has.
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Old 08-27-2007, 03:34 PM   #62
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Great OP, Jack.

Monzon was a true phenomenon. Drank, partied, smoked and killed elites left and right.

Still, I have Hagler as my all time favorite, but quite possibly Monzon would have beaten him as well.
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:06 PM   #63
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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No he hasn't . Haglers first 45 opponents lost almost 60% of there fights .
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Hagler's first 45 opponents had 92 more wins than losses.
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Old 08-27-2007, 04:52 PM   #64
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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Originally Posted by McLovin
No he hasn't . Haglers first 45 opponents lost almost 60% of there fights . Hopkins combined opponents lost 23% of there fights while Haglers lost 29% . Hopkins beat more name fighters and won titles in 2 divisions while shattering Haglers defense record by almost double !
His title defenses is deceiving. He didn't really shatter Monzon and Haglers title defence records if you by lineal or unified standards. This is neither hopkins nor hagler or monzons fault but in hopkins time the politics of the game where different and the titles where splintered.
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Old 08-27-2007, 05:59 PM   #65
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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I was going to reply to your enitre post, but then I saw this post.

MY ORIGINAL POST WAS ALL ABOUT THE SMALLER MEN HAGLER AND MONZON BEAT WERE ELITE AT MIDDLEWEIGHT!

This point has pissed me off so much. **** off, you cunt. if you can't be bothered to read my intial post and reply to that, don't bother replying at all.

Dickhead.
Actually, you were going to reply to my entire post, but all you could refute was this.....and only because I generalized, as did you. And showed in my other posts that you were dead wrong in your assessment.

Try to argue with someone who knows LESS about the sport than you next time brotha!!!

Leonard, Duran and Hearns all had lackluster careers at MW (160). None of them could be considered ELITE at this level. Do your homework next time.........Dickhead!

(and I read your post....it was mostly your bs biased opinion, none of it was based on fact....as I showed with my other points, that you so convieniently chose to NOT QUOTE.....what a jackass....next time either comment on the whole thing...or just go away)
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:14 PM   #66
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Monzon and Hagler didnt make their way by running, holding, clenching and headbutting.
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:23 PM   #67
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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Originally Posted by Ramshall1
Monzon and Hagler didnt make their way by running, holding, clenching and headbutting.
So this makes them better?

By all intents and purposes, there are plenty of dirty fighters that you would NEVER rank over a clean one.

Who was a better fighter Greb or Joppy. Greb was dirty. Joppy was clean. Or how about Vitali (clean) or Holyfield (dirty)? The style in which you win holds little to no bearing over your greatness....if you are talking clean and dirty that is.

Make some sense please.
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:28 PM   #68
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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So this makes them better?

By all intents and purposes, there are plenty of dirty fighters that you would NEVER rank over a clean one.

Who was a better fighter Greb or Joppy. Greb was dirty. Joppy was clean. Or how about Vitali (clean) or Holyfield (dirty)? The style in which you win holds little to no bearing over your greatness....if you are talking clean and dirty that is.

Make some sense please.
when you rely on breaking the rules that often it does matter IMO. Barry Bonds is crap in my book, I know its a left field comparison but you get the point.
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:39 PM   #69
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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when you rely on breaking the rules that often it does matter IMO. Barry Bonds is crap in my book, I know its a left field comparison but you get the point.
Bonds was a HOFer before that. Thats my out of left field answer.....

(BTW, cant stand Bonds either...POS if I ever saw one....but the man was still an ATG....The pre-roids HRs, 10+ gold gloves, the speed, the arm, the UNBELIEVABLE eye for the ball....cant stand him, but he is still an ATG....even without the Roids, which further pisses me off)

Now as for Hopkins, say what you want about his breaking the rules...but there are plenty just as bad, if not worse throughout history that, as I said, you would easily rank over 99.9% of the clean ones.

Roy Jones Jr (roids), Toney (same), Holyfield (Butts, holds, etc.), Tyson (elbows...among other things ), Tito (illegal handwraps), etc. It could go on all day.

Hopkins is also (arguably) one of the best defensive fighters ever (pretty much unarguably of the active fighters). This was not done running...not done butting...not done holding.

Like I said, plenty....AND I MEAN PLENTY.....of the ATGs that most people rank VERY VERY high were just as dirty as Bernard. This has zero bearing on their greatness.....
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:41 PM   #70
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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Originally Posted by sues2nd
Bonds was a HOFer before that. Thats my out of left field answer.....

(BTW, cant stand Bonds either...POS if I ever saw one....but the man was still an ATG....The pre-roids HRs, 10+ gold gloves, the speed, the arm, the UNBELIEVABLE eye for the ball....cant stand him, but he is still an ATG....even without the Roids, which further pisses me off)

Now as for Hopkins, say what you want about his breaking the rules...but there are plenty just as bad, if not worse throughout history that, as I said, you would easily rank over 99.9% of the clean ones.

Roy Jones Jr (roids), Toney (same), Holyfield (Butts, holds, etc.), Tyson (elbows...among other things ), Tito (illegal handwraps), etc. It could go on all day.

Hopkins is also (arguably) one of the best defensive fighters ever (pretty much unarguably of the active fighters). This was not done running...not done butting...not done holding.

Like I said, plenty....AND I MEAN PLENTY.....of the ATGs that most people rank VERY VERY high were just as dirty as Bernard. This has zero bearing on their greatness.....
would Bonds have broken Aarons record without cheating?

CHeating has a bearing in my book, I can only speak for myself here. . . for those who excuse it, God bless.
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Old 08-27-2007, 06:58 PM   #71
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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Originally Posted by Ramshall1
would Bonds have broken Aarons record without cheating?

CHeating has a bearing in my book, I can only speak for myself here. . . for those who excuse it, God bless.
I understand that....like I said, I HATE BONDS. BUT, pre-roids Bonds was still a sure fire, first ballot HOFer.

No he would not have broken Aaron's record, but the other records he holds still would have fallen.

You may say cheating is cheating....but using roids to generate more strength, power and bat speed, as opposed to holding or leading with a head or running (sorry, I have NEVER seen Hopkins run) are just apples and porkchops....TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ENTITIES!

Has Bernard ever been DQd for holding? Are there not HUNDREDS of fighters that hold more (WLAD and Hatton immediately jump to mind)? Does it tarnish them as cheaters as well?

Greb was a master at leading with the head? Is he not an ATG for it?

I mean, ya cant have it both ways....if ya use holding and headbutting, etc. as a means to tarnish someones legacy, then you gotta do it for ALL of the people who did the same thing.

His defensive ability (which we already spoke of), the fact that he was able to change his entire style so late in his career (and actually become better), his longevity (matched by only a handful of people ever....if that), his chin (****IN GRANITE!!!), his resume (which is ONE HELL OF A RESUME IF YOU REALLY BREAK IT DOWN), a two division champ (has talked about Calzaghe next, for a chance to make it three), his ring generalship (amazing), his accuracy (pinpoint...seriously, has ANYONE EVER hit Winky that clean????), that incredible lead right (which is still one of the best weapons in boxing), you could go on and on about this guy.

To say that because he is known to hold or butt, none of the above matter is a little crazy, aint it?
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:01 PM   #72
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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Originally Posted by sues2nd
I understand that....like I said, I HATE BONDS. BUT, pre-roids Bonds was still a sure fire, first ballot HOFer.

No he would not have broken Aaron's record, but the other records he holds still would have fallen.

You may say cheating is cheating....but using roids to generate more strength, power and bat speed, as opposed to holding or leading with a head or running (sorry, I have NEVER seen Hopkins run) are just apples and porkchops....TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ENTITIES!

Has Bernard ever been DQd for holding? Are there not HUNDREDS of fighters that hold more (WLAD and Hatton immediately jump to mind)? Does it tarnish them as cheaters as well?

Greb was a master at leading with the head? Is he not an ATG for it?

I mean, ya cant have it both ways....if ya use holding and headbutting, etc. as a means to tarnish someones legacy, then you gotta do it for ALL of the people who did the same thing.

His defensive ability (which we already spoke of), the fact that he was able to change his entire style so late in his career (and actually become better), his longevity (matched by only a handful of people ever....if that), his chin (****IN GRANITE!!!), his resume (which is ONE HELL OF A RESUME IF YOU REALLY BREAK IT DOWN), a two division champ (has talked about Calzaghe next, for a chance to make it three), his ring generalship (amazing), his accuracy (pinpoint...seriously, has ANYONE EVER hit Winky that clean????), that incredible lead right (which is still one of the best weapons in boxing), you could go on and on about this guy.

To say that because he is known to hold or butt, none of the above matter is a little crazy, aint it?
I hear ya and comparing Hops' cheating to Bonds' cheating is off, I just brought it up to make a general point.

I have seen Hops run IMO. My poiny is he relies on cheating (holding, headbutting) too much and I take that into consideration when evaluating - if you choose not to then thats yer perogative.
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Old 08-27-2007, 07:43 PM   #73
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

Quote:
Originally Posted by sues2nd
Bonds was a HOFer before that. Thats my out of left field answer.....

(BTW, cant stand Bonds either...POS if I ever saw one....but the man was still an ATG....The pre-roids HRs, 10+ gold gloves, the speed, the arm, the UNBELIEVABLE eye for the ball....cant stand him, but he is still an ATG....even without the Roids, which further pisses me off)

Now as for Hopkins, say what you want about his breaking the rules...but there are plenty just as bad, if not worse throughout history that, as I said, you would easily rank over 99.9% of the clean ones.

Roy Jones Jr (roids), Toney (same), Holyfield (Butts, holds, etc.), Tyson (elbows...among other things ), Tito (illegal handwraps), etc. It could go on all day.

Hopkins is also (arguably) one of the best defensive fighters ever (pretty much unarguably of the active fighters). This was not done running...not done butting...not done holding.

Like I said, plenty....AND I MEAN PLENTY.....of the ATGs that most people rank VERY VERY high were just as dirty as Bernard. This has zero bearing on their greatness.....
While I'm pretty much with you on most of THIS thread, a couple of points I do need to take exception with (nitpicking, if you will):

Roy Jones Jr (roids), Toney (same), Holyfield (Butts, holds, etc.), Tyson (elbows...among other things ), Tito (illegal handwraps), etc. It could go on all day.

What you say about Toney, Tito, Tyson and Holy are proven.
No-one has ever proven that Roy has taken steroids. I believe he should not be lumped in with those fighters whom we KNOW cheated.

Hopkins is also (arguably) one of the best defensive fighters ever (pretty much unarguably of the active fighters). This was not done running...not done butting...not done holding.


I believe many would argue that Floyd is as good (or better) defensively than Bernard.

All that said, I rank Bernard as a top 5 alltime middlewt.
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:14 PM   #74
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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Originally Posted by sues2nd
Actually, you were going to reply to my entire post, but all you could refute was this.....and only because I generalized, as did you. And showed in my other posts that you were dead wrong in your assessment.
No it isn't, but please, keep thiking it was. You thinking you have outwitted me, because I couldn't be bothered to reply tpo you is ****ing hilarious

Answer my points properly, and then I'll bother to reply to your nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sues2nd
Try to argue with someone who knows LESS about the sport than you next time brotha!!!


It just gets better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sues2nd
Leonard, Duran and Hearns all had lackluster careers at MW (160). None of them could be considered ELITE at this level. Do your homework next time.........Dickhead!
All three beat fighters better than anyone of Hopkins smaller opposition did.

Can you honestly compare the wins of Leonard (160lbs), Duran (160lbs) and Hearns (175lbs), to those for De La Hoya (160lbs) and Trinidad (160lbs)? I don't think so. The first three have wins miles ahead of anything Trinidad or De La Hoya did.

The best win between DLH and Tito at 160lbs is Joppy. He isn't as good as Barkley.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sues2nd
(and I read your post....it was mostly your bs biased opinion, none of it was based on fact....as I showed with my other points, that you so convieniently chose to NOT QUOTE.....what a jackass....next time either comment on the whole thing...or just go away)
How can you ever base an opinion on fact?

Do you think Muhammad Ali is a better fighter than John Ruiz? I'm guessing yes (Although reading some of your posts, this isn't guarenteed), yet it isn't a fact. Everyone with a brain (Again, not nessecarily you) thinks Ali is the better boxer, and I'm sure 99.9999999999999999999% of boxing experts would agree too, but it doesn't make it a fact.

I think Monzon and Hagler beat better smaller fighters than Hopkins. Is it a fact? Of course not, but it's a claim I backed up, something you are incapable of doing.

And again, I chose not to reply to your post as it was stupid. It was random, pointless and added nothing to the thread.
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Old 08-27-2007, 08:19 PM   #75
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Default Re: What seperates Monzon and Hagler from Hopkins

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The difference is Hagler's oppositions of Hearns, duran, leonard is superior to Oscar and Tito. As it has been said before Oscar did nothing at middleweight so what makes him a good win at that weight it doesn't matter what he did at lower weights. Duran still did 6 yrs after the hagler fight being a old 37 yrs old win the middleweight Title against Iran Barkley. Duran is a better middleweight win than oscar is. Hearns also accomplished more than Tito at middleweight and higher weights. Although the tito win is a good win regardless because he did look awesome against Joppy and going into the hopkins fight he was favoured by many. But the oscar win is a meaningless win at middleweight.

Hamsho, Roldan, Antuofermo these guys were tough no nonsense guys they were good legit tough middleweights. Just because they weren't multiple time titleholders because things were different in there time doesn't mean they weren't very good fighters. The Glen Johnson that fought Hopkins wasn't better than these guys at middleweight. The tarver win is a good win for hopkins at light heavy against a true light heavy which is a nice addition to his resume. The Winky win isn't as impressive and doesn't make his resume too much richer in my book. Fighters like Eugene Hart, Bennie Briscoe, Mugabi all murderous punchers are still good solid wins which are better than the likes of robert allen, mercado etc. If you match up resumes Hagler has Hopkins beat all hopkins has over hagler is his light heavyweight title winning effort agianst Antonio Tarver which as i said before is a nice addition to his resume.
Fantastic post, mate

I'm not just saying that because you agree with me, but it really was good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shareef
Also claiming that monzon and halger retired early and how hopkins is still going in his 40's doesn't really mean nothing. Athletes are aging better these days than they did in previous generations also they both had far more fights than hopkins so although he has fought for 10 more years he has considerably less fights.
Yep, exactly. I think people put too much on age.

Compare Tyson to Foreman. Tyson was in his prime in his early 20's, and has 0 chance of getting another belt. Foreman, in his physical prime, couldn't win a belt, yet when he was fat and old, returned to capture the lineal strap.

It all depends on how well a fighter ages, his fighting style, how hard some fights are. Being a great fighter at 40 doesn't mean much about skill level, just that Hopkins and Foreman aged better.
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