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Old 08-29-2007, 06:39 AM   #61
Mendoza
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Default Re: Is there a LHW who would have stood a chance with Tyson?

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Senya13 The pressure fighter Tunney is matched against was just as ferocious as Greb, but more polished, much bigger and stronger, with much harder punch in both hands, and beat a a lot of ranked heavyweights.
Very true. But Greb was a sustained windmill. Tyson was a tornado that came and went. Those who were not afraid of Tyson and could weather his storm or avoid it beat him. Tyson has one late round TKO in his career ( 10th ) and after that his next latest TKO is round 7. I beleive Tyson's activity level and aggression dropped off significantly after about round 5.
While smaller heavies like Spinks and M Frazier " froze ", others did not. Tyson might have had honest draw vs James Tillis, who like Tunney was a good boxer. So you see, Tyson did not roll over guys who did not freeze up. Tunney would not freeze up. He was a marine.

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It's very debatable.
Since we can't see the fights, yes it is debatable. However Tunney won three of five, and Greb won once according to Newspapers. I see you left out my comment that both Greb and Dempsey did not want any part of a peaking Tunney. They knew Tunney had passed them, so each man said no thanks to another fight. Tunney had trouble with Greb when he was less than 175 pound. As soon as he grew into his frame, the fight changed.

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One has to look for styles match up, and we see that Tunney didn't match up well against good pressure. He only managed to beat Greb convinsingly once out of 5 fights, when Greb started to slide down.
Greb had far more energy than Tyson did. The fight Greb officially won is Tunney's lone loss. I beleive it would be a NC in modern rules due to Greb butting Tunney in the face and creating a broken nose and cuts in round 1.

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You aren't watching the fights too attentively, as well as you don't read contemporary sources about these fights. It is clear (and contemporary experts mentioned this in their analysis) that Dempsey changed his style for these bouts to a more usual style, making his left hook ineffective (due to his stance), and almost abandoning his rushes completely.
I wasn't watching the fights too attentively? The #1 strategy for Dempsey was to catch Tunney on the ropes or brawl toe to toe if Tunney was follish enough to stand and trade. Outside of the long count round, ( a round where Tunney took Dempsey best combination on film and got up 100% fresh and showed brilliant evasive footwork ), please show me one other round where Dempsey was able to catch up to Tunney and unload his bombs without being tangled up in a clinch. Examples would be nice.



Dempsey badly wanted to land his hook. Tunney proved to be a frustrating target that would box and move. Tunney was a bit like Ali, except he was even more focused and did not take breaks on the ropes to catch his wind. Dempsey was in better shape for the second match. Even a past his best Dempsey moved better than most top heavyweights. If Tunney stood toe to toe, or tired, there is NO WAY Dempsey boxes! Dempsey grew tired of chasing Tunney. And Tunney hurt Dempsey though an attrition of blows. If the fight was 15 rounds, Tunney likely scores a TKO. At the end of the 2nd fight, Dempsey an honest man wanted to congragulate Tunney, but his eyes were slits, and a corner man had to help Dempsey find where Tunney was in the ring! Did you know this? Have you not see a stylistic shut down in boxing where a slugger can't win more than a round or two vs a fast boxer? See Holmes vs Shavers. Shavers looks like he's trying to box, but in truth he badly wanted to slug.....he just could not find that type of fight and ends up chasing Holmes for most of the rounds.

Again, I do pick Tyson here. My point is Tunney has a chance to upset. Other boxers like Douglas and Holyfield used their skils and jab to frusterate Tyson, then take him out late.
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:30 AM   #62
Senya13
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Default Re: Is there a LHW who would have stood a chance with Tyson?

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Very true. But Greb was a sustained windmill. Tyson was a tornado that came and went. Those who were not afraid of Tyson and could weather his storm or avoid it beat him. Tyson has one late round TKO in his career ( 10th ) and after that his next latest TKO is round 7. I beleive Tyson's activity level and aggression dropped off significantly after about round 5.
1) We are talking about prime Tyson of late 1980s.
2) Prime Tyson didn't keep trying to knock the other guy out as the rounds went by. What you believe is not proven by facts, even if for the simple reason that only a couple of fighters lasted that long.

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While smaller heavies like Spinks and M Frazier " froze ", others did not. Tyson might have had honest draw vs James Tillis, who like Tunney was a good boxer. So you see, Tyson did not roll over guys who did not freeze up. Tunney would not freeze up. He was a marine.
Who exactly scored the fight with Tillis as a draw? And Tillis was a genuine heavyweight, not a natural light heavyweight. There's a big difference between the two, and it's not just a number.
The thing is Tunney was hittable in several fights with Greb. He was hittable from the very first round, not only when he tired out towards later rounds. Tyson's punching power was very far ahead of Greb's. Tunney wasn't invulnerable even to Greb's light punches. Shot Jack Dempsey (who at that age certainly didn't hit as hard as prime Tyson) didn't need many chances to drop Tunney, and drop him hard. But that Dempsey didn't have the mobility of his younger version, nor was he using a stance which brought him success, the new stance rendered his left hook useless. Tyson would be getting close to Tunney all the time, tens of times during each round, unlike Dempsey, and same as Greb in several fights. Spinks had as good feet as Tunney, it didn't help him, you can't run away from that Tyson, you should be ready to work in close one way or another. And Tunney wasn't very good at that, he was more of an outside fighter.

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Since we can't see the fights, yes it is debatable. However Tunney won three of five, and Greb won once according to Newspapers.
Greb argueably deserved to win 3 out of 5 depending on what sources you look at.

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I see you left out my comment that both Greb and Dempsey did not want any part of a peaking Tunney. They knew Tunney had passed them, so each man said no thanks to another fight. Tunney had trouble with Greb when he was less than 175 pound. As soon as he grew into his frame, the fight changed.
Dempsey was shot even before the first fight with Tunney, after 2nd fight he figured it didn't make sense to make another attempt. It has nothing to do with Tunney growing bigger or anything, regardless of what Dempsey said to the public.
The last fight with Greb was different because Greb was clearly past his best at that point. Contemporary sources started to speak about Greb being on the downslide for some time prior to last fight with Tunney. If my memory doesn't fail me it was discussed by the time of the 1st fight with Flowers.

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Greb had far more energy than Tyson did.
The possibility that fight last the distance is very low. Main analysis of this matchup should be concentrated on first several rounds, what's the possiblity that Tunney can survive them.

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I wasn't watching the fights too attentively?
Yes. Compare Dempsey's stance and movement from earlier fights and how he stood and moved vs Tunney. He switched to more orthodox (for that time) stance, with his left hand by his chest (while it should have been held higher, of course, it didn't protect him from Tunney's jabs at all the way how low it was), and he was trying to feel Tunney out with jab a lot. When he wanted to throw a left hook from that stance, he needed to re-group, to put weight on front leg, pull his left hand back and turn his body counter-clockwise to put weight into his punch, this required only fractions of a second, of course, but it was more than enough time for Tunney to escape or on the contrary close the distance. This repeated over and over again. Some experts mentioned this change and how stupid it was weeks before the 1st fight, by watching Dempsey in his training camp. But he still went on with this new style, which didn't suit him at all. Prime Dempsey didn't use a stance like that, he held his feet parallel, in a frontal stance where he could step in with right foot and throw a left hook immediately, close the distance and fire up with both hands. With orthodox stance he couldn't do this anymore. Plus, with upper body leaned forward (head-first) and left hand held so low, he was a live punching bag for jabs. Tunney rarely missed with it.
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