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Old 08-28-2007, 10:49 AM   #1
ChrisPontius
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Default Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

He faced the two best (super)middleweights of his era, Toney and Hopkins and he beat them.

Wait, he didn't just beat them, he dominated them. He lost maybe one or at best two rounds in the entire fight against Toney and same with Hopkins, though he won one more round than Toney. If both of these men didn't have all time great chins, they would've probably not seen the end.

Say Hopkins was green but he had more fights than Jones, something not to be overlooked. Toney had 45 fights under his belt and you can make excuses about him being weight drained all night long, but it's never really good in the eyes of Toney fans. At 168 he's weight drained, at 175 he's unmotivated and at 190++ he's overweight. Hopkins is still a force today and Toney was a heavyweight contender for the last three years, that should tell you something.



There may have been some interesting fights that could've been made, Benn, Eubank, McClellan at middleweight, and at lightheavyweight, Tiger is the only one i can think off.. what other lightheavyweight should he have fought? But realise that no one is exactly willing to fight one of the most insanely gifted boxers of the century when it comes to speed & power. Hopkins demanded too much money for a rematch while he is the bore and Jones is the big name. Not a coincidence.
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:55 AM   #2
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Roy is hated on way too much to be given credit for those wins. Bernard hadn't lost since his pro debut and didn't lose again for like 11 years but he was too green even though he had more fights than Roy and had earned the title shot. Toney made all types of excuses and the Roy haters figure a trash talking sore loser like Toney said it so it must be true.

One thing that I do disagree with you on is that he dominated hopkins. He won very confortably but Bernard did hold his own unlike Toney who was completly blown out
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:02 AM   #3
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
He faced the two best (super)middleweights of his era, Toney and Hopkins and he beat them.

Wait, he didn't just beat them, he dominated them. He lost maybe one or at best two rounds in the entire fight against Toney and same with Hopkins, though he won one more round than Toney. If both of these men didn't have all time great chins, they would've probably not seen the end.

Say Hopkins was green but he had more fights than Jones, something not to be overlooked. Toney had 45 fights under his belt and you can make excuses about him being weight drained all night long, but it's never really good in the eyes of Toney fans. At 168 he's weight drained, at 175 he's unmotivated and at 190++ he's overweight. Hopkins is still a force today and Toney was a heavyweight contender for the last three years, that should tell you something.



There may have been some interesting fights that could've been made, Benn, Eubank, McClellan at middleweight, and at lightheavyweight, Tiger is the only one i can think off.. what other lightheavyweight should he have fought? But realise that no one is exactly willing to fight one of the most insanely gifted boxers of the century when it comes to speed & power. Hopkins demanded too much money for a rematch while he is the bore and Jones is the big name. Not a coincidence.

First of all, RJJ-Bhop was scored 116-112 by the judges. That's not really a domination in which way you put it. And yes, Hopkins was green who has really a fraction of experience RJJ had despite having more fights. To the contrary, it was Jones who is wary of Hopkins' strength and power at that fight.


Second, Toney was weight-drained. If RJJ never believed at that excuse, he should've given him a rematch. DId he? and he also should never used such an excuse against Tarver.

And yes, that hopkins is still a force today tells us something, that RJJ only got away with talent for so long, if we rob him of his speed, he's got no back-up.


Lastly, he never really dug deep on negotiating to make great fights happen. Simply because he always gets the money from HBO fighting tomato cans. He doesn't need them plain and simple.


Yes RJJ is a great fighter, but there is also a reason why he's not rated as high as his talent warrants.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:07 AM   #4
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

It's merely a vicious rumour that there is something wrong with RJJs resume. In my opinion he has beaten more than a handful of great fighters throughout. Those he didn't fight, didn't want to, or failed to understand that RJJ brought the money to the fights no matter whom he fought.

RJJ had no reason to duck anyone. He believed he was indestructable, and so did most of us.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:25 AM   #5
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SugarShane_24
First of all, RJJ-Bhop was scored 116-112 by the judges. That's not really a domination in which way you put it. And yes, Hopkins was green who has really a fraction of experience RJJ had despite having more fights. To the contrary, it was Jones who is wary of Hopkins' strength and power at that fight.


Second, Toney was weight-drained. If RJJ never believed at that excuse, he should've given him a rematch. DId he? and he also should never used such an excuse against Tarver.

And yes, that hopkins is still a force today tells us something, that RJJ only got away with talent for so long, if we rob him of his speed, he's got no back-up.


Lastly, he never really dug deep on negotiating to make great fights happen. Simply because he always gets the money from HBO fighting tomato cans. He doesn't need them plain and simple.


Yes RJJ is a great fighter, but there is also a reason why he's not rated as high as his talent warrants.
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thats the thing i have against rjj. he could have gone on to become one of the greatest with his amazing talent, but absolutley did nothing to enhance his greatness after beating toney and X, hence imo he underachieved. he grew content feasting on bums, and then loved to brag about being the best "p4p", being unstoppable etc.. nonsense, i thank mr. tarver and mr. johnson for depositng him on the seat of his pants shattering that facade he built. i also agree about the hbo comment. they lined his pockets with millions, and it became convenient for him to 'defend' the title against cops and garbage men in glorified exhinitions.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:28 AM   #6
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SugarShane_24
Lastly, he never really dug deep on negotiating to make great fights happen. Simply because he always gets the money from HBO fighting tomato cans. He doesn't need them plain and simple.
Who do you think should have "dug deep" in negotiations for the hopkins rematch. Since we have Roy Naysayer that is willing to engage in conversation I'd like to ask you about a few points that go completly ignored by hopkins fans whenever I bring them up people never reply to me.

1.) The 60/40 split that Roy offered hopkins and hopkins beleived to be unfair would ahve given hopkins a $6million dollar payday. He turned it down and instead fought Carl Daniels for 1.2 million
2.) Hopkins claimed that after the middlewieght tournament he was the draw. Watch "night of champions". It was at boardwalk hall in AC. The seats are all full for the co main event Cory Spinks vs Ricardo Mayorga. For Hopkins vs Joppy more than half the seats are empty. This can be verified by simply watching the telecast and IMO shows that Bernard not only didn't have the drawing power to sell tickets but couldn't even keep people in seats they had already paid for.
3.) Hopkins had alread lost the first fight. he was the one with something to prove. When great fighters have that oppurtunity they don't bicker over money. SRL was willing to concede to anything to get Duran back in the ring, RJJ was willing to concede to anything to get Griffin back in the ring, Mosley was willing to concede to anything to get Wright and Forrest back in the ring, Judah took a 150,000 payday to get spinks back in the ring. Bernard turned down a payday that was 3 times anything he had ever made and took a fight for 1/6 what he would have made for his chance at redemption.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:39 AM   #7
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thewoo
Who do you think should have "dug deep" in negotiations for the hopkins rematch. Since we have Roy Naysayer that is willing to engage in conversation I'd like to ask you about a few points that go completly ignored by hopkins fans whenever I bring them up people never reply to me.

1.) The 60/40 split that Roy offered hopkins and hopkins beleived to be unfair would ahve given hopkins a $6million dollar payday. He turned it down and instead fought Carl Daniels for 1.2 million
2.) Hopkins claimed that after the middlewieght tournament he was the draw. Watch "night of champions". It was at boardwalk hall in AC. The seats are all full for the co main event Cory Spinks vs Ricardo Mayorga. For Hopkins vs Joppy more than half the seats are empty. This can be verified by simply watching the telecast and IMO shows that Bernard not only didn't have the drawing power to sell tickets but couldn't even keep people in seats they had already paid for.
3.) Hopkins had alread lost the first fight. he was the one with something to prove. When great fighters have that oppurtunity they don't bicker over money. SRL was willing to concede to anything to get Duran back in the ring, RJJ was willing to concede to anything to get Griffin back in the ring, Mosley was willing to concede to anything to get Wright and Forrest back in the ring, Judah took a 150,000 payday to get spinks back in the ring. Bernard turned down a payday that was 3 times anything he had ever made and took a fight for 1/6 what he would have made for his chance at redemption.
It was being negotiated for a few years back, RJJ-Bhop should have been signed even before the DK 160 lb tourney, Hopkins was willing to face him for a lot less money but RJJ insisted a ridiculous 11th hour salary cap. What the hell is that for? Doesn't seem like very eager to fight to me. After beating Trinidad, Hopkins, although not the draw, suddenly became as popular as Jones, and who says Jones is such a best-seller outside of Pensacola? Wasn't people organizing a Roycott because of his boring wins over (compared to him), pedestrian fighters? Another thing, Hopkins just came from a superfight with Trinidad, Jones never had one since Toney.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:48 AM   #8
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Whatever Jones motavation was, after he beat Hopkins and Toney, he failed to engage in many more interesting fights.He showed great natural talent, and superhuman reflexes, but satisfied himself and his loyal fans with taking on opponents beneath him.I guess thats entertaining if you are Roy, or one of his followers.More and more Roy mouthed off, bragged, postured and preened, but a lot of us wanted to see him take on Michielsewski.The Pole was cemented over in Germany, and wouldn't come over here for a fight, but Roy wouldn't budge either.However, it was Jones who was doing most of the talking, rapping about himself, playing the part, so maybe it seemed that Roy should have gone over and kicked DM's ass and stopped all the talk, but all he did was flap his gums even more.So then he decides to take on the heavyweights, and shuts out Ruiz, but what about Lennox Lewis?The way Roy bragged, you'd think he'd beaten Ali, Frazier , and Foreman in their primes on the same night.
Then , Roy gets ktfo twice in a row, by light heavyweights that certainly will be not considered ATG .So at this point we have a guy that once showed potential to be the most fabulous of all time, only to eventually brag more than fight, cherry pick opponents, and ultimatly get flattened by guys beneath his talents, and then still brag like he's the greatest ever.
It would have been great to see Roy test himself against Lewis or Tyson, and he had the talent to possibly win these fights.But Roy chose to be stingy with his talent, and now hes more of a cult hero than a universially recognized ATG.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:01 PM   #9
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooke
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thats the thing i have against rjj. he could have gone on to become one of the greatest with his amazing talent, but absolutley did nothing to enhance his greatness after beating toney and X, hence imo he underachieved. he grew content feasting on bums, and then loved to brag about being the best "p4p", being unstoppable etc.. nonsense, i thank mr. tarver and mr. johnson for depositng him on the seat of his pants shattering that facade he built. i also agree about the hbo comment. they lined his pockets with millions, and it became convenient for him to 'defend' the title against cops and garbage men in glorified exhinitions.
Yet another poster who believes more in what media claims than own logic.

I guess you blame him for taking on Tarver and Johnson also, and praise them for taking on him.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooke
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thats the thing i have against rjj. he could have gone on to become one of the greatest with his amazing talent, but absolutley did nothing to enhance his greatness after beating toney and X, hence imo he underachieved. he grew content feasting on bums, and then loved to brag about being the best "p4p", being unstoppable etc.. nonsense, i thank mr. tarver and mr. johnson for depositng him on the seat of his pants shattering that facade he built. i also agree about the hbo comment. they lined his pockets with millions, and it became convenient for him to 'defend' the title against cops and garbage men in glorified exhinitions.
Lets talk about some of these "bums" that jones defended against.


Montell Griffin - 2 wins over James Toney 1 in the fight right before Jones.

Virgil Hill - Former 2 division champ. Went the distance with DM Roy KO'd him in 4, went on to claim a title at cruiserweight

Eric Harding - Had just won an eliminator against Antonio tarver

Julio Gonzalez - Went on to beat DM (on DM's home turf)

Clinton wood - Went on to gain a title at light heavy, still holds it today.

Antonio Tarver - Went on to be champion beat Roy twice in rematches. People seem to forget that Roy won that first fight.

John Ruiz - Not a defense but a move up in weight. Roy put on 20 pounds and still completly dominated a guy that outweighed him by 30 pounds 15% of Roy's body weight. People criticize John but Roy was able to do something that Holyfield, Rahman, Oquendo, and a who's who of other top 10 heavyweights could not do.

These guys were not bums, Roy just made them look that way because of how good he does. What cracks me up is the same people that criticize this resume praise hopkins for his 20 defenses against the likes of robert allen, carl daniels, etc.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:24 PM   #11
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Have you seen Roy vs Hopkins.

A clear win, but not even close to domination.

Hopkins won 4 rounds
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:49 PM   #12
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thewoo
Lets talk about some of these "bums" that jones defended against.


Montell Griffin - 2 wins over James Toney 1 in the fight right before Jones.

Virgil Hill - Former 2 division champ. Went the distance with DM Roy KO'd him in 4, went on to claim a title at cruiserweight

Eric Harding - Had just won an eliminator against Antonio tarver

Julio Gonzalez - Went on to beat DM (on DM's home turf)

Clinton wood - Went on to gain a title at light heavy, still holds it today.

Antonio Tarver - Went on to be champion beat Roy twice in rematches. People seem to forget that Roy won that first fight.

John Ruiz - Not a defense but a move up in weight. Roy put on 20 pounds and still completly dominated a guy that outweighed him by 30 pounds 15% of Roy's body weight. People criticize John but Roy was able to do something that Holyfield, Rahman, Oquendo, and a who's who of other top 10 heavyweights could not do.

These guys were not bums, Roy just made them look that way because of how good he does. What cracks me up is the same people that criticize this resume praise hopkins for his 20 defenses against the likes of robert allen, carl daniels, etc.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:49 PM   #13
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
He faced the two best (super)middleweights of his era, Toney and Hopkins and he beat them.

Wait, he didn't just beat them, he dominated them. He lost maybe one or at best two rounds in the entire fight against Toney and same with Hopkins, though he won one more round than Toney. If both of these men didn't have all time great chins, they would've probably not seen the end.

Say Hopkins was green but he had more fights than Jones, something not to be overlooked. Toney had 45 fights under his belt and you can make excuses about him being weight drained all night long, but it's never really good in the eyes of Toney fans. At 168 he's weight drained, at 175 he's unmotivated and at 190++ he's overweight. Hopkins is still a force today and Toney was a heavyweight contender for the last three years, that should tell you something.



There may have been some interesting fights that could've been made, Benn, Eubank, McClellan at middleweight, and at lightheavyweight, Tiger is the only one i can think off.. what other lightheavyweight should he have fought? But realise that no one is exactly willing to fight one of the most insanely gifted boxers of the century when it comes to speed & power. Hopkins demanded too much money for a rematch while he is the bore and Jones is the big name. Not a coincidence.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:37 PM   #14
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharaoh
Have you seen Roy vs Hopkins.

A clear win, but not even close to domination.

Hopkins won 4 rounds
But only after Jones right hand was clearly injured.

And someone said Jones was vastly more experienced despite Hopkins having one more fight? Why? Hopkins had 100 amateur fights.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: Say about Roy Jones' opposition what you will, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thewoo
Lets talk about some of these "bums" that jones defended against.


Montell Griffin - 2 wins over James Toney 1 in the fight right before Jones.

Virgil Hill - Former 2 division champ. Went the distance with DM Roy KO'd him in 4, went on to claim a title at cruiserweight

Eric Harding - Had just won an eliminator against Antonio tarver

Julio Gonzalez - Went on to beat DM (on DM's home turf)

Clinton wood - Went on to gain a title at light heavy, still holds it today.

Antonio Tarver - Went on to be champion beat Roy twice in rematches. People seem to forget that Roy won that first fight.

John Ruiz - Not a defense but a move up in weight. Roy put on 20 pounds and still completly dominated a guy that outweighed him by 30 pounds 15% of Roy's body weight. People criticize John but Roy was able to do something that Holyfield, Rahman, Oquendo, and a who's who of other top 10 heavyweights could not do.

These guys were not bums, Roy just made them look that way because of how good he does. What cracks me up is the same people that criticize this resume praise hopkins for his 20 defenses against the likes of robert allen, carl daniels, etc.
Let me add to this. 12 of the 15 fighters Jones faced in his title reign at LHW were top 10 Ring LHW. If we are calling these guys bums, then who are the good fighters?
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